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I want Poch back

braineclipse said:
I agree with most of that. Question is if continuing with the rebuild by selling those players is the best way forward. I may very well be wrong, but I think bringing Pochettino back wile Kane is here is a bad idea. I also think we can get rather good over the next 6 months with Kane and Conte and build even further on that next season. I don't think the timing is right.

He called the rebuild. But the track record of signings under him with regards to higher profile/cost players was rather poor. I think he's very much proven at building by signing younger posters and building over time. Not nearly as proven at building quickly with money or pushing a team on through signing and integrating players that work quickly.

A quality DoF like Paratici may change that. But for me at least the word "may" its important in that sentence. I'm not sure that's actually a known thing.

Conte on the other hand is very much proven at exactly what we (imo) need right now. And we've already spent time and significant money for players that fit into his way of doing just that.

We can disagree on whether Pochettino deserved more time. I think Conte definitely deserves more time.
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It's a fair point regarding Kane, I'd be hopeful that Poch could over see a transition to life without him should that be the way he decided to go, it may even be a case that Kane would not want to stick around for Poch mk II and take it as his cue to leave anyway - I'd also be hopeful that we could make it work should both parties want it to, maybe a deeper no.10 sort of role with less responsibility to cover ground - whoever comes in or with Conte here that is going to be an issue regardless.

True regarding track record with more money to spend & building quickly but I'd just reiterate there that our transfer policy was shrouded in mystery as to who was responsible for what/who during the latter years, supposedly he wanted Wijnaldum & Mane and was given Sissoko & N'Koudou and latter Sanchez instead of Deligt - the club seems in a better place with Paratichi as you say so again I'd be confident that next time if we can't get his primary targets the club would be coming in with better fall back options.

I think looking at the players bought for Conte there's a lot of crossover on who would work under Pochettino as well (listed them already so no need to again)
 
thfcsteff said:
You know why he was sacked. If you genuinely don't, I will give you my view.
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Give me your view. My view is that the form was bad and had been for months. If it was good it wouldn't matter how many posters of mourinho levy had on his wall, poch wouldn't have been sacked.
 
glasgowspur said:
I would add to that an agreement on a realistic progression timetable.
Our undoing under poch first time around was that we achieved way quicker than we thought possible.
Its very unlikely that we would luck out again with players like kane, Eriksen, son, jan, Dembele, walker and rose all gelling and more or less all peaking at the same time.
At least not on our budget.
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I don't think we need to luck out and we're not far away from having the makings of a good team

New Keeper needed whoever is in charge.
Spence
Udogie/Perisic
Romero
New CB needed regardless
Bissouma/Skipp/Sarr
Bentancur/Hojberg
Richarlson/Son
Kulusevski
Kane

Come next summer the New GK & CB wil be here - then the only issue for a Poch team for me would be the question mark over Kane and how he fits in and whether or not we need a new CF or whatever.


I also think this is true for Conte, just we need to add the additional CB to make it a back 3 and a more ready made RWB. Both managers would need a bit more quality in depth as well tbf - but ultimately despite our poor form and the negative feeling about the place i think we're well on the way to turning the squad around
 
thfcsteff said:
Did you go to the Bayern game? First half we were excellent. Some Supporters are fickle. That's the issue.
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We were and Ndombele fudged us from memory with a couple of lazy mistakes. But you have to be honest, conceding 7 goals in any game is unforgivable and hinted at problems. The Brighton game not long after compounded them.

I love Poch and always will. Towards the end though, I wanted him to go. Not because of results...his demeanour was of a beaten man and his utterances were bizarre and didn't reflect well on anyone. Despite my frustration with him, I absolutely would have given him the full season to turn it around. He'd earned at least that much loyalty in my book. Sadly, Levy saw a chance to get his man crush.

I'd love Poch back one day. Not quite now, for me Conte is the man. But one day I want him back to hopefully get his dues...singing "He's magic you know..." as we lift a trophy would be glorious for me.
 
Lilbaz said:
Give me your view. My view is that the form was bad and had been for months. If it was good it wouldn't matter how many posters of mourinho levy had on his wall, poch wouldn't have been sacked.
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He was unsupported at critical times, nearly left in summer 2019, they all made up, Mourinho's people started whispering in Levy's ear, he started flirting with Levy, Poch wondered WTF was going on given what he'd done for us and what he'd delivered against a backdrop of slim investment as Levy built the stadium AND being 'homeless' for a season and a half, then having made up with each other. People around Levy started to chip in, and they decided to drink Mourinho's Kool Aid and not give Poch time and funds to build MkII. I believe he had earned the right. The fickle didn't. It was obvious Mourinho would fail; he lied to get the job! I got into all this at the time, and my opinion was largely written off as 'fanboy' whimsey. It wasn't. We lost two and a half years going down the Mourinho rabbit hole...

The only question is whether Poch would've developed further as a manager. I always felt he needed a couple more veterans, for example I really thought Alves in 2018/19 would've been an amazing signing, especially given that we saw what Llorente's experience bought us at vital moments. But I think Poch had fudging earned the right to a second run. IMO, your analysis lacks context and detail.
 
DeanoAustin said:
We were and Ndombele fudged us from memory with a couple of lazy mistakes. But you have to be honest, conceding 7 goals in any game is unforgivable and hinted at problems. The Brighton game not long after compounded them.

I love Poch and always will. Towards the end though, I wanted him to go. Not because of results...his demeanour was of a beaten man and his utterances were bizarre and didn't reflect well on anyone. Despite my frustration with him, I absolutely would have given him the full season to turn it around. He'd earned at least that much loyalty in my book. Sadly, Levy saw a chance to get his man crush.

I'd love Poch back one day. Not quite now, for me Conte is the man. But one day I want him back to hopefully get his dues...singing "He's magic you know..." as we lift a trophy would be glorious for me.
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I think you're absolutely right in so much as there were too many problems by then. Truthfully, Levy should not have made up with Poch that summer because he did not fully believe anymore IMO. And absolutely yes, Poch should've had that season and two more windows. I think if he had, both Ndombele and LoCelso would've blossomed.
 
billyiddo said:
It's a fair point regarding Kane, I'd be hopeful that Poch could over see a transition to life without him should that be the way he decided to go, it may even be a case that Kane would not want to stick around for Poch mk II and take it as his cue to leave anyway - I'd also be hopeful that we could make it work should both parties want it to, maybe a deeper no.10 sort of role with less responsibility to cover ground - whoever comes in or with Conte here that is going to be an issue regardless.

True regarding track record with more money to spend & building quickly but I'd just reiterate there that our transfer policy was shrouded in mystery as to who was responsible for what/who during the latter years, supposedly he wanted Wijnaldum & Mane and was given Sissoko & N'Koudou and latter Sanchez instead of Deligt - the club seems in a better place with Paratichi as you say so again I'd be confident that next time if we can't get his primary targets the club would be coming in with better fall back options.

I think looking at the players bought for Conte there's a lot of crossover on who would work under Pochettino as well (listed them already so no need to again)
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Some great points in both this and your later post here mate.
 
thfcsteff said:
I think you're absolutely right in so much as there were too many problems by then. Truthfully, Levy should not have made up with Poch that summer because he did not fully believe anymore IMO. And absolutely yes, Poch should've had that season and two more windows. I think if he had, both Ndombele and LoCelso would've blossomed.
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I see it slightly differently: if Ndombele and LoCelco had blossomed, Poch would have been fine. The only issue I ever really had with Poch was his hunger to have more control (over transfers), and his record once he did have control of transfers.

Put it this way: if we had succeeded in signing Bruno Fernadez, I think we would have kicked on under Poch. Our midfield became so lacking in quality that no one could patch it up anymore, even Poch. It is only this season with 4 new CMs (since Poch) that we finally have some quality for the heart of the team. Ndombele and LoCelco cost Poch his job imo.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I see it slightly differently: if Ndombele and LoCelco had blossomed, Poch would have been fine. The only issue I ever really had with Poch was his hunger to have more control (over transfers), and his record once he did have control of transfers.

Put it this way: if we had succeeded in signing Bruno Fernadez, I think we would have kicked on under Poch. Our midfield became so lacking in quality that no one could patch it up anymore, even Poch. It is only this season with 4 new CMs (since Poch) that we finally have some quality for the heart of the team. Ndombele and LoCelco cost Poch his job imo.
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LoCelso arrived on deadline day. Poch always said Ndombele needed time. FWIW, I think Bentancur and Kulusevski must go down as two of the greatest instant impact transfers in modern Prem history.
 
thfcsteff said:
LoCelso arrived on deadline day. Poch always said Ndombele needed time. FWIW, I think Bentancur and Kulusevski must go down as two of the greatest instant impact transfers in modern Prem history.
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For us definitely. Saudi Sportswashing Machine would cite Bruno Guimares as having had significant impact. Whilst there’s potential for Anthony, and Liverpool love Diaz. But we definitely hit gold with Kulusevski and Bentancur.
 
Don't want poch back. Can run a young team but clueless when we got to the CL final, and can't work with Levy regarding transfers and upgrades. Thought his time at psg was a borderline failure, overruled by management and players all the time, could not really stamp his style on the game.

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metalgear said:
Don't want poch back. Can run a young team but clueless when we got to the CL final, and can't work with Levy regarding transfers and upgrades. Thought his time at psg was a borderline failure, overruled by management and players all the time, could not really stamp his style on the game.

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I don’t know if you can say Poch was clueless in the CL Final. We were 1-0 down within the first minute thanks to being stitched up by Mane and the ref.
 
Bishop said:
I wouldn't say he was clueless but he had 89 minutes to fix it so I can see where that kind of thinking comes from.

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We were the better team in that final albeit neither side played great. On a couple of occasions we had them 3v3 or 4v4 and the final pass was dreadful. You can't blame Poch for that.

Alisson got MOTM if memory serves me correctly. Poch was no more clueless than Klopp in that final.

The fact we're even talking about Tottenham Hotspur being in a CL final classes Poch as a success for me. Growing up, even when it expanded, I often wondered if I'd ever see us play in the competition. To qualify 4 years in a row and get to the final was a remarkable achievement and much more so when you consider some of the conditions he was working under.
 
El Guepardo said:
I don’t know if you can say Poch was clueless in the CL Final. We were 1-0 down within the first minute thanks to being stitched up by Mane and the ref.
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With a team that had a centre midfield of Sissoko and Winks to a team who were (significantly) better than us as proven by their league finish that season and the following season.
 
DeanoAustin said:
We were the better team in that final albeit neither side played great. On a couple of occasions we had them 3v3 or 4v4 and the final pass was dreadful. You can't blame Poch for that.

Alisson got MOTM if memory serves me correctly. Poch was no more clueless than Klopp in that final.

The fact we're even talking about Tottenham Hotspur being in a CL final classes Poch as a success for me. Growing up, even when it expanded, I often wondered if I'd ever see us play in the competition. To qualify 4 years in a row and get to the final was a remarkable achievement and much more so when you consider some of the conditions he was working under.
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Indeed. As I said in another post; if Conte got us to 4th place and a CL final this season the very same people who criticise Poch would be treating Conte like a GHod.

How Poch got a team to 4th place and the CL final with zero new players, one very important one sold in Jan, a bunch of injuries and the majority of the team going to the final game of the WC in the preceding summer I’ll never know. The fact that some of our fans can’t appreciate that shows why we don’t deserve him back.
 
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