Harry Redknapp: The Aftermath

[punk_is_back`]

If you add

"....top 4 with 5 games to go, but having gotten only a 6 points from the last 8 games and lost 15 points on Arsenal in less that 3 months"

I bet the picture gets a bit more complete.

Exactly. We've had shown that we could consistently perform and win games at the start and middle of the season. We weren't overachieving this was the level of performance demanded off the players. If we were lower than 5th and had fought to improve our league position I would have accepted a 5th place finish due to the money in the sky 4/5. However the fact that we've lost such a huge advantage in the space of a few months whilst all our competition has been in bad form for the majority of the season is totally unacceptable. Missing out on the CL will not only mean we lose out on approx ?ú40mil of revenue, but players leave and its a case of one step forward two steps back. The blood will be on Redknapp's hands.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Glad to see someone is keeping the faith. It's looking unlikely but if we win all our games it's possible. But they have to do what they did two seasons ago and really pull it out of the bag. We also need Stoke and Chelsea to do us a massive favour.....

F-ing right.

it's not over til it's over and i for one wouldn't give up whether i was in the stand or on the pitch until the end of game 38.

long way to go yet.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

I must admit, the collapse two seasons ago was unforgivable......

:lol:

unforgivable.

 

[elltrev]

So you have veered from a spirited defence of Harry in your first post to now saying that you are not against him going if we finish in 6th! You are now in effect judging him over the last 5 games!

No, I'd be judging him over 38 games. And I wouldn't necessarily want him to be sacked; I just wouldn't be against it if we had the opportunity to get someone that I thought was better.

I started this thread in response to people who were reacting to our recent slump by saying things like 'Harry's done us over', 'We have the third-best squad in the league and now Harry's let us slip to 4th'. My point was, and is, that it is Harry who has taken us to the third best squad in the league, and it is Harry who had us challenging for the title at one point. To blame him for the fall from that position, but to not give him credit for getting us there in the first place, is stupid.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Question:

Has there ever been a time when the players of a club knew a manager was leaving to do something that he'd rather be doing come the end of the season, that hasn't lead to a significant drop in form?

Fergie retiring, Sven leaving Lazio for England, Harry being the clear favourite to leave Spurs for England, and it all lead to bad form. Has something like this happened where it hasn't lead to bad form?

I can understand we've had a tough run of fixtures, and I don't think the players delibrately try any less, I just think it's subconscious. We are a good team and could have gotten some points out of at least some of those tough games. But I think a small time mentality has come into the players minds, and they snatch at shots, they don't hit them confidently. They also lose concentration. Saha missing from a yard out at Everton, Van der Vaart missing a glaring chance at Chelsea, snatching at what chances we did create against Norwich. We were ruthless in the beginning of the season, but now it seems like deep in the players minds it's 'ok' to miss, because they aren't the most important team in their minds, and the goals don't matter as much because their manager is going off to do something 'better', something he'd rather be doing come the end of the season. We are still getting good performances, because Harry is a good manager and we have good players, but it's that ruthlessness that big teams have that has completely escaped us.

I remember when Holt crossed the ball for Bradley Johnson on Monday. He was about 6 yards out, and all he had to do was whack the ball into our goal. It was an easy chance. Little bit of pressure on him but he ended up hoofing it well over. If that was a player at a big club, they would have buried it. And not just because they would be a better class of player than Bradley Johnson, because the chance was pretty easy and any PL player should have been able to bury it. It's because they know that they should be beating Spurs at White Hart Lane, where as this Norwich player knows that it would be a shock result, and therefore it's not the worst thing to miss, the concentration goes, the brain spazzes out, and he hoofs it over.

I truly believe that is what has happened to us. Norwich aside, where we still created chances, we've had poor games like Stoke and Sunderland, but they are teams that have come to frustrate us anyway, and it can happen. In the other games, where we've 'played well and didn't deserve to drop points' we have missed easy chances that confident players who knew that their manager viewed them as the most important thing in his life would have buried. It's ridiculous how many clear cut, nailed on chances we have been missing. On the other hand, when we were able to beat Swansea, the chances were instinctive. Rafa's goal was hit first time with little chance to think. Ade's goals were headers that didn't need to be thought about. Any chances that did require some thought though, and the ruthlessness wasn't there.

Little mistakes like Kaboul against Everton, Modric against Man United have also started creeping in too. They simply didn't happen at the start of the season. Players were concentrating. They were confident. They knew they were important. It's not that they are trying less because Harry is going, but I believe on a subconscious level, it has implemented a small time mentality that won't be able to be shaken off.

I am actually going to be very surprised if we make the top 4 because of this.

 

[indianspur]

Question:

Has there ever been a time when the players of a club knew a manager was leaving to do something that he'd rather be doing come the end of the season, that hasn't lead to a significant drop in form?

Fergie retiring, Sven leaving Lazio for England, Harry being the clear favourite to leave Spurs for England, and it all lead to bad form. Has something like this happened where it hasn't lead to bad form?

i think you add Rodgers to this as a very recent example.......since he became a bit more ambiguous about his future, all of a sudden Swansea cant buy a win

 

[andyc]

Rednapp has been a revelation for us, no doubting that in my view. As mentioned earlier in the thread, he has been at the helm to oversee bale becoming a world class player, signed good players on the whole, given me the chance to see tottenham in the bernabau. Quarter finals of the champs league - yes we lost but in all my years didnt see the day coming id be sitting there watching spurs. People will say but what about saha and nelsen ? Nelsen has been ok - decent back up if really needed (see king, galllas, kaboul, dawson* ahead of him if fit. Does anyone know how much money Levy allowed Rednapp in the last transfer window ? if he was restricted in budget then id like to know which striker and central defender we could have bought in at comparable cost ?

I know we have a limited squad - we always have had. We are not funded by oil stealing tycoons ( disclaimer : of course im not inferring any EPL teams are and we have been, and can only hope continue to punch above ou financial weight. We can all enjoy fantasy manager but rednapp, i am sure, was not in a position to buy a couple of world class players in the window o carry us over the line. Will i be happy if we finish 5th or 6th - NO - ill be gutted, but i wont point the finger at harry. The FA yes - no coincidence the form has dipped, certain players maybe, chelsea getting lucky at home, united doing what they always do.

I really dont believe we are suddenly rubbish, we have a chance still of A nice fa cup win and 4th - the goons can get 3rd for all i care - if it wasnt for a mental Robin van persie season they would be well below us.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Absolutely. Not looking at results, looking at performances - this team looks like the man in charge hasnt a clue. It is becoming increasingly apparent that we dont have a rehearsed style of play, that we rely on individual ability instead of a system, that we dont practice essentials and that the manager does pay enough attention to the details.

Regardless of what has been, it is clear this team is capable of so much - and that management/coaching is the missing element

I love your posts. You try and come across all reasonable and rarely stick your colours to any mast, but every now and then your true feelings on the current management do come out!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Honestly I have mixed feelings about the management, probably why you think I sit on the fence much of the time.

I like a lot of what Harry has done, I genuinely do. And I like Harry too, he is a character.

I also dont like a lot of what he has done.

At this point I think his positives have been exhausted, this really is "as good as it gets" [with Harry], and his negatives are holding us back.

I do believe there is more to come from this squad, but after this time Harry is not the man to extract it.

The real issue comes down to - who is? There only a handful of managers guaranteed to improve us, and they are most likely unavailable. So the question is stick with the devil you know or twist...

 

[indianspur]

I love your posts. You try and come across all reasonable and rarely stick your colours to any mast, but every now and then your true feelings on the current management do come out!

i bet you think Nayim is a Harry Hater, you do dont you

 

[BrainOfLevy]

i think you add Rodgers to this as a very recent example.......since he became a bit more ambiguous about his future, all of a sudden Swansea cant buy a win

I'd almost agree, but Moyes has also been strongly linked and Everton don't seem to have any sign of slowing down. Has Moyes outright denied it? Maybe that's why, the players have firm answers and can continue with their business.

Or if he hasn't denied it firmly, maybe it's simply because he's not nailed on for the job like Harry is for England. It isn't seen as a certainty, so the players don't need to worry too much. Rodgers isn't really seen as a certainty to us either, although maybe his ambiguous answers do look suspicious to his players. But they have had a tough run of fixtures and couldn't be expected to win those games like we should be expected to win some of ours that we have failed to do.

Really I just don't see why the managers that are linked away don't flat out deny the link as soon as it becomes available. It's incredibly stupid that the FA don't want to 'disrupt our season' by approaching Redknapp, so instead they sit there, and everyone knows they are going to do it, and we have been disrupted anyway, Harry's name is always in the papers linked with the job and it couldn't have gone any worse had he been approached and taken the job already. It's literally so mind numbingly stupid that this has been allowed to happen. Why didn't Harry just have his agent tell only the most important, top guys at the FA that he would consider any offer, and have him tell Levy that himself, but then flat out deny the link? Why can he not just say 'I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the England job, I am enjoying my time at Spurs and we have a real chance of a title challenge, there is no way I would want to leave this club and if they offer me the job I would reject it.' Bang, leave no room for doubt, and let the players get on with their jobs. Let the papers stress around Pardew or Hodgson and let the pundits like Shearer tell those clubs that they need to let their manager be appointed to the national team right now for a tournament that the country hasn't got a chance of winning anyway.

Yes it's a complete out and out lie, but so what? If we eventually leaves, people will be tinkled, but again, so what? People would understand that for the greater good, and to truly not destabalise the season, he had to eliminate any uncertainty. If he then gets us a top 3 finish and goes on his way I don't think there will be many people holding it against him anyway. Why could this not happen? It's not as if it's unrealistic to say that he now wants to stay at Spurs, because we are on the cusp of a title challenge, and even though he has said he couldn't turn down England before, now he is at a big enough club that he can. That should be enough to stop the journos calling flimflam and continually questionning him, so why, the fudge, could it not happen?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

i bet you think Nayim is a Harry Hater, you do dont you

Hate is a strong word. But even when we were on that so called great run he was critical of him, and any compliments he pays him are always back handed. He clearly doesn't want him at the club.

 

[ArcspacE]

I don't want him at the club either. Please add me to your little black notebook

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I don't want him at the club either. Please add me to your little black notebook

You don't say? :lol:

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I would like to think Ive explained my position well enough for you to understand clearly.

Given my way I would move him on for an improvement.

As Im uncertain as to who is an improvement I probably wouldnt make a move right now.

Im not a Harry hater at all, even if I do think his limitations are showing and we could do better.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I would like to think Ive explained my position well enough for you to understand clearly.

Given my way I would move him on for an improvement.

As Im uncertain as to who is an improvement I probably wouldnt make a move right now.

Im not a Harry hater at all, even if I do think his limitations are showing and we could do better.

In terms of other Premiership Managers, where would you rate him right now? From 1st to 20th.

 

[ArcspacE]

Below Rodgers and Lambert for certain - at least they try and implement systems of play within their teams

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

In terms of other Premiership Managers, where would you rate him right now? From 1st to 20th.

Wenger, Ferguson, Mancini, Moyes, Pardew, ONeil, Lambert, Rodgers, Pulis and Martinez are all streets ahead of him with regard to preparing a team and embedding a style of play.

Possibly only Ferguson is above him with regards to motivating players.

Plenty in front of him in the transfer market.

As an overall package? Probably about 5/6th. Though its hard to say given that there are a good few managers who havent enjoyed the resources Harry has.

 

[indianspur]

I'd almost agree, but Moyes has also been strongly linked and Everton don't seem to have any sign of slowing down. Has Moyes outright denied it? Maybe that's why, the players have firm answers and can continue with their business.

Or if he hasn't denied it firmly, maybe it's simply because he's not nailed on for the job like Harry is for England. It isn't seen as a certainty, so the players don't need to worry too much. Rodgers isn't really seen as a certainty to us either, although maybe his ambiguous answers do look suspicious to his players.

Moyes hasnt been asked directly by journalists if he would be interested in the Tottenham job. His future isnt speculated upon as much as lets say Rodgers's is. There was a period a recently when Rodgers was put on the spot on an almost daily basis if he would be interested in Chelsea or Tottenham. At first he said categorically no way, and Swansea continued to play well, but soon after he mentioned something about the buyout clause he has in his contract, that was interpreted as a change of heart on his part and he would indeed be open to offers if they came along. Since then their form has gone off the boil. The players probably feel he could be off.

I do agree that managers should just deny any rumours.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Below Rodgers and Lambert for certain - at least they try and implement systems of play within their teams

This often gets thrown at Harry now, but really it isn't a negative point on him, it's just his chosen style.

He likes to give players freedom to express themselves. Jol and Ramos tried to implement systems and it's great if you have the players that can play the system, but if you don't, then it leads to a bit of a mess. Jol needed someone like Carrick, but got Zokora. Ramos was left without any decent striker options. Implementing a system is one way of going about it. Giving players freedom is another.

Earlier in the season everyone was raving about our open, expressive style of football. Now that results have turned suddenly being open and expressive is the problem. I sat next to an Arsenal fan at work who was constantly on the phone to his mates saying how he was fed up with Wenger's 'tippy tappy' and wanted him out of the club. Results were against him and all of a sudden Wengers style was the problem - now, I bet they love it again. Harry has often made the right calls. Against City when we got 4th, he said people told him we should go there to try and be more solid, but he set the team up for have a go at them and be open, and they didn't get near us the entire match. AVB had (admittedly ****ish) players moaning at him because he didn't let them play with enough freedom. It's a spectrum, a choice. A style is not a good or a bad thing. When things are going well, that choice is hailed as the reason why, and the same when things are not. But it's a choice. They have consequences, but if you make any other choice you get different consequences.

I have no problem with how Harry prepares the team. I think he has good tactical knowledge, and players like playing for him. I just think he is hamstrung by the knowledge that he is going to leave. In terms of quality of manager in the league, I'd place him somewhere near the top. Fergie is far and away the best, but other than that I just think managers, as long as they are not seriously bad, don't actually have enough about them to make a significant difference. If Lambert has Norwich over performing with League 1 players next season then you can say fair play, he is fantastic. Same with Rodgers. I think they are good, but it does need to be proven ultimately. Most managers, if they are of a good standard, will get their sqauds roughly where they should finish at the end of the season. We should be at least top 5, City and United should be top 2. Sunderland should be top half, etc etc. Villa should be bottom half, Fulham should be mid-table. It is Norwich and Swansea's first season, so they are unknown quantities, but if they over perform again next year then credit will go to their managers. But at this level, I think too much gets put in to what a manager can do. Most can't affect that much.