Davinson Sanchez

[DubSpur]

Of course I was just highlighting the objective numbers - i don't think Lo Celso, given his lack of minutes, due to saving himself for Argentina half the time he was out, contributed more on the pitch outside of those areas in any way shape or form to be honest with you.

Given the subject at hand relates to the abuse one player got, and still gets, over the other there's certainly not really anything to argue Ndombele was so bad in comparison to justify why he got the attention and i do think it's a good example of subconciois bias at play.

I think it's more to do with expectations than unconscious bias. Ndombele is without a doubt a very talented player, a lot more so than Lo Celso, and had the potential to be one of the top players in the world.
With that, there comes an expectation that far outweighs the expectations of Lo Celso. It's the disappointment with the lack of effort and application to become the player that he should be that leads to the abuse he gets. I'm not condoning the abuse, but it is why in this instance one player is getting more abuse.

 

[thfcsteff]

I also think our black players get worse treatment from our fans than the white ones…. Ndombele and Lo Celso are a good example. Ndombele gets WAY more abuse than Lo Celso, despite their fees being similar and Ndombele actually having better output on the pitch for Spurs than Lo Celso.

So, so true. I wince at some of the flimflam I've read about Ndombele. I'll go as far as to say had he been an option for us this season of the bench, we'd have won few more games. He does things. He makes things happen. LoCelso wasted enormous talent.

 

[thfcsteff]

Agreed, it absolutely is the case, also see Royal vs. Doherty

When England loses a penalty shootout, my first thought is please don't let any of the black players miss a penalty, the racist asshats will crawl out of under their rocks in a second. Saka missed a penalty for Arsenal last week, want to guess what you saw on his social media?

Lots of players/professional sportspeople get abuse, but to pretend black players (and women) don't get a different type of abuse is just enabling ..

Again, on point.

 

[thfcsteff]

Possibly, but do you not think that a large chunk of the abuse Ndombele gets is down to effort? Lo Celso has been poor but puts in the effort and had at least one spell when he was decent.

Style and effort are different things.

 

[thfcsteff]

No
To pretend a player got bood because he was black rather than playing really poorly is weak imo
I do agree black players do get racially abused by the Sanchez example was not the case IMO
At least not where I was sat here in the ground (I can’t speak for everyone)

And I stand by my comment the other day, that as fans no one should say or sing anything that they wouldn’t do face to face to that player

That is my mantra.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That is my mantra.

Imagine that
I’d love a player to have the opportunity to “confront” a fan who has made racist comments
That kind of education could be huge

 

[thfcsteff]

The lack of explanation on point 8 is a mystery but okay, no need to expand even if it makes very little sense, why bother helping other posters understand what you're getting at..


2. You said yourself he isn't good enough but okay, feel free to rest on how he is very good if you compare him to an average citizen of the world. As for people having made up their mind, he wasn't getting booed when he slotted in during the run in last season. Because he wasn't awful and dragging everyone else around him down.

6. This was my point I raised that you have failed to understand, so don't try and turn the smarmy high horse back around on me thanks. The "all" as in the "it's all fair game" is specifically regarding booing, not anything that goes further than that. But you appear to un-ironically consider booing as some kind of treacherous heinous traumatizing act if it's against Sanchez, so you must be as bothered of we boo opposing players right? Think of the damage it must cause, the shattered egos etc etc...Won't someone think of the children!?!?? (Simpsons quote of lady being hysterical if you aren't familiar and that last line seems out of context).

7. It should make no difference but now you can blame the fans for negatively affecting the teams results whilst feeling morally superior.

This is an odd debate as we both agree the booing individual players isn't productive, but you aren't giving fans any allowance as to why they're frustrated. Support the team better and they'll play better? As entitled as it may appear, the reality is it has to work the other way around, the fans react to what they see, they don't have the performance in their hands, that's down to the players and coaching staff.

I don't give a brick about 'moral superiority' mate.
We will never agree on #6, so what's the point? I will say, I am out of patience for your withering and over-dramatic take on my opinion regarding the matter. You simply don't understand the point I'm making, so let's just leave it.
'The lack of explanation on point 8...' - I have no idea what you consider 'bullying'. I suspect you believe that people should have thicker skins. I also suspect you think people calling targeted booing of players 'bullying' is 'soft' or something. I don't agree with you. Pretty simple really.

 

[thfcsteff]

Imagine that
I’d love a player to have the opportunity to “confront” a fan who has made racist comments
That kind of education could be huge

It is why when Cantona, Dier, etc, confront tossers who stand there hurling abuse, even though it is wrong, I am all for it. There has to be accountability.

 

[DubSpur]

Style and effort are different things.

Yes, and Ndombele lacks the latter

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yes, and Ndombele lacks the latter

Yep
If he tried as hard as he should he would get many more opportunities

 

[spurspinter1]

I don't give a brick about 'moral superiority' mate.
We will never agree on #6, so what's the point? I will say, I am out of patience for your withering and over-dramatic take on my opinion regarding the matter. You simply don't understand the point I'm making, so let's just leave it.
'The lack of explanation on point 8...' - I have no idea what you consider 'bullying'. I suspect you believe that people should have thicker skins. I also suspect you think people calling targeted booing of players 'bullying' is 'soft' or something. I don't agree with you. Pretty simple really.

We have literally both said player's need thicker skins, top marks for "suspecting" something that has been written down in plain English by both of us.

With your mentioning of traumatic abuse / bullying and I'm the one being overdramatic? Ridiculous, you're parodying yourself here. As for you not claiming to care about moral superiority, give over, you've judged the actions of others with as strong and emotive language as possible, by default suggesting the way you act is better, at least own the high horse you sit on rather than having it on loan.

We agree for the most part on this subject so it's really not about me not being able to understand what you've written. From the start you were desperate to shut down the discussion rather than genuinely reflecting on your views, so thanks for a pointless discussion Piers Morgan light. Ref the chat with Raziel in the OMT for how to have a chat on the subject in good faith, but why would you, when you know you're right about everything and anyone who doesn't automatically clap and cheer your views just doesn't understand.

Edit - And you're "all for" incidents like Cantona on the fan? Booing is tantamount to abuse but a trained athlete assaulting a spectator is to be encouraged? Righty'o then.

 

[DubaiSpur]

It is why when Cantona, Dier, etc, confront tossers who stand there hurling abuse, even though it is wrong, I am all for it. There has to be accountability.

On the other hand, if they tried clambering into a European ultras stand to confront abusive fans, they'd be absolutely clobbered, and they know it.

I'd just observe from a comparative standpoint, that this entire discussion is very 'England' - on the continent you have fans literally blockading stadiums, invading training grounds and sending boxes of rotten produce to players to highlight how brick they are. They make themselves known in no uncertain terms, and players learn not to tinkle the ultras off. To @spurspinter1 's point, they develop thicker skins as a consequence of playing in front of those fans, but there is also an understanding that they are accountable to those fans who pay their wages.

The downside of that is that ultras are also frequently violent criminal organizations that aren't shy about racially abusing players they don't like.

In England, the culture is extremely watered down, and Dier can clamber over to go confront some fans (or Cantona can drop kick one of them) and nothing happens to either of them. Fans are generally limited to just individually or collectively shouting abuse, without any of the shenanigans European fanbases get up to.

But, on the plus side, there's less open criminality and *much* less racism in English fanbases as a result of this. In North America, it's even more watered down than that - while South America, by contrast, hews a lot more to the European ultras tradition.

What is the point of bringing up these comparisons? I guess only to highlight that, to an extent, there is moral relativity across football anyway. You're never going to get universal agreement on what exactly the limits are in holding players accountable for being wilfully poor and embarrassing the fans.

But I'd guess booing is on the tamer end of the scale compared to some of the other methods out there.

 

[totalspurs]

The comments posted in relation the targeted booing of Sanchez were to highlight racial unconscious bias, which I believe is present in the reason for the targeted why in which every touch was booed, to the extent that the crowd forced his withdrawal from the pitch.

No one has that the reason for the booing was directly racially motivated, or blatant racism.

Racial Unconscious bias happens when your acting in a particular way, not believing your actions are anything to do with race. But in fact the actions would be different if the race of person was different.

Racism today is very different to how things were in the 70's and 80's. People are a lot more educated and aware of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate behaviour (generally). Also social pressures stop some people from acting in a racially motivated way in public.

However, the unconscious bias can still make people behave differently to towards one group of people compared to others without thinking about it

The examples given by others have already illustrated some evidence of this.

The question is if Sanchez was a white player, would he have still been booed for every single touch of the ball whilst on the pitch to the point where the management substituted him off the pitch.

Or would he have only been shouted at and partially bood or moaned at for the mistakes but then left alone to continue playing?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The comments posted in relation the targeted booing of Sanchez were to highlight racial unconscious bias, which I believe is present in the reason for the targeted why in which every touch was booed, to the extent that the crowd forced his withdrawal from the pitch.

No one has that the reason for the booing was directly racially motivated, or blatant racism.

Racial Unconscious bias happens when your acting in a particular way, not believing your actions are anything to do with race. But in fact the actions would be different if the race of person was different.

Racism today is very different to how things were in the 70's and 80's. People are a lot more educated and aware of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate behaviour (generally). Also social pressures stop some people from acting in a racially motivated way in public.

However, the unconscious bias can still make people behave differently to towards one group of people compared to others without thinking about it

The examples given by others have already illustrated some evidence of this.

The question is if Sanchez was a white player, would he have still been booed for every single touch of the ball whilst on the pitch to the point where the management substituted him off the pitch.

Or would he have only been shouted at and partially bood or moaned at for the mistakes but then left alone to continue playing?

As I asked the other day, have you ever been to a game?

Just because someone doesn’t agree with you and your thoughts… it doesn’t mean there is any unconscious bias at play, it really doesn’t

if we had a white CB whose first touch was to let the ball roll under his foot and his second was his recovery… his third was to pass it to a player who then lost it (his fault, not Dave’s) which then leads to a goal.. they would get abuse

I’ve seen it and heard it myself many times with white players. I’ve asked heard it with players of many ethnicities

it’s rarely on the scale of Saturday because as I’ve said before.. and you chose not comment…. It was a negative sub by a negative manager. That’s what the fans are targeting. It’s on par with contes sun vs Milan. That was Sanchez and that was bood. Nothing to do with him and everything to do with the type of sub

was the booing way back when Nuno made his subs and got sacked racist??

it doesn’t mean some people may have done it because of their views but they tend to express them in others ways with other language rather than booing

you have to remember that fans are very tribal and more so at the ground. One will follow another

I was at Campbell return to the lane, sat with a mate of mine who is black. The abuse Campbell for was huge and some of it was racist. One guy actually apologised to my mate for calling Campbell a black clam… I was stunned and told the guy to fudge off whilst my mate just took it

ive seen it all and Saturday was all about a player who isn’t capable of playing currently and the negativity of the sub

 

[Bullet]

frost touch
contes sun

I think I agree with you.
I believe the boos are saying both "oh gosh, I don't want a negative sub, I want a positive sub, and I definitely do not want this guy who we all know has a terrible first touch and a very weak mentality, he will probably rooster up in the next 5 minutes... yep, there you go, get him off the pitch, and do something positive instead"

It is a shame for Sanchez, it is hurtful, but he should have left already, his time has looooong gone here. He has the option to leave, and he should.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think I agree with you.
I believe the boos are saying both "oh gosh, I don't want a negative sub, I want a positive sub, and I definitely do not want this guy who we all know has a terrible first touch and a very weak mentality, he will probably rooster up in the next 5 minutes... yep, there you go, get him off the pitch, and do something positive instead"

It is a shame for Sanchez, it is hurtful, but he should have left already, his time has looooong gone here. He has the option to leave, and he should.

Sanchez by all accounts has turned down moves
He is happy here getting a Good pay day and a great standard of living

I hope he gets a solid move and resurrects his career

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

Sanchez by all accounts has turned down moves
He is happy here getting a Good pay day and a great standard of living

I hope he gets a solid move and resurrects his career

To think Paratici once reportedly agreed a deal with Sevilla to pay £20m plus Sanchez for Kounde, only for Kounde to turn us down.

We came so close to having a defence of Bremer, Kounde, Romero for around £100m plus Sanchez.

Would have been epic.

 

[totalspurs]

As I asked the other day, have you ever been to a game?

Just because someone doesn’t agree with you and your thoughts… it doesn’t mean there is any unconscious bias at play, it really doesn’t

if we had a white CB whose first touch was to let the ball roll under his foot and his second was his recovery… his third was to pass it to a player who then lost it (his fault, not Dave’s) which then leads to a goal.. they would get abuse

I’ve seen it and heard it myself many times with white players. I’ve asked heard it with players of many ethnicities

it’s rarely on the scale of Saturday because as I’ve said before.. and you chose not comment…. It was a negative sub by a negative manager. That’s what the fans are targeting. It’s on par with contes sun vs Milan. That was Sanchez and that was bood. Nothing to do with him and everything to do with the type of sub

was the booing way back when Nuno made his subs and got sacked racist??

it doesn’t mean some people may have done it because of their views but they tend to express them in others ways with other language rather than booing

you have to remember that fans are very tribal and more so at the ground. One will follow another

I was at Campbell return to the lane, sat with a mate of mine who is black. The abuse Campbell for was huge and some of it was racist. One guy actually apologised to my mate for calling Campbell a black clam… I was stunned and told the guy to fudge off whilst my mate just took it

ive seen it all and Saturday was all about a player who isn’t capable of playing currently and the negativity of the sub

Sorry forgot to answer this part...
This session I've been to only two games, but most seasons I averaged about 8-9 games. But I do watch every single game on my stream too.

Look I'm not saying everyone one in the crowd was acting with a racist vendetta against Sanchez.

I'm not even saying I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm saying people should start by considering self assessing their own unconscious bias when they target abuse/bully someone.

I keep using the word "target" because Sanchez became a target for abuse in that match.

There is a clear correlation between how someone becomes a selected as a target and the unconscious minds perception of who it wants to take it's frustration out on.

We have to be very very careful in these situations.

I'll give you an example, so last week at the game you held absolutely no unconscious bias in your mind and when Sanchez started to make a mistake you groaned and then booed him for messing up.
Hearing you a group of people around you who did have a strong racially prejudice view against black players also started booing.
Off the back of that others in crowd who have an unconscious bias (IE. Don't realise they hold this bias) against black players, feel that they now feel comfortable and ok with booing Sanchez and targeting him continuously everytime he is going to touch the ball.

No one was shouting racist abuse. But they picked Sanchez (when many other white players have been just as bad or worse) as they one they felt comfortable using this approach against as a collective.

Also when manager's make very poor decisions, the crowd usually target the manager eg. Collectively shouting "you don't know what your doing" or singing the name of the player on the bench who they think should be coming on.

They don't boo the player the manager brought on to the pitch and continuing to boo the same player every time he touches the ball.

Again, I'm trying to make it clear that their is big difference between individual fans shouting abuse (not necessarily racist abuse) and a large collective suddenly targeting a single player every time he touches the ball. (This kind of booing is usually only reserved for Arsenal players, or someone who has disrespected club or cheated us in the past).

The only clear examples times it has happened like this before to one of our players by our own fans are against black players. Now IMO that's not a conscious decision, but an unconscious bias.

I maybe wrong, but that's how I view it. As this is a chat forum I'm just putting it out there as view or an opinion for discussion. Lots of people have expressed their own views which I think is a healthy thing. I'm not looking to say you're wrong, I'm just asking people to think about it...

Someone else used the term "playing the race card"... That is one of the most blatant examples of unconscious bias against people of colour being able to express their views....and is really really offensive.
That person said it, but some others were probably thinking it too... when I made suggestion that the race of a player could be an issue in how we react towards them due to our own unconscious bias.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sorry forgot to answer this part...
This session I've been to only two games, but most seasons I averaged about 8-9 games. But I do watch every single game on my stream too.

Look I'm not saying everyone one in the crowd was acting with a racist vendetta against Sanchez.

I'm not even saying I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm saying people should start by considering self assessing their own unconscious bias when they target abuse/bully someone.

I keep using the word "target" because Sanchez became a target for abuse in that match.

There is a clear correlation between how someone becomes a selected as a target and the unconscious minds perception of who it wants to take it's frustration out on.

We have to be very very careful in these situations.

I'll give you an example, so last week at the game you held absolutely no unconscious bias in your mind and when Sanchez started to make a mistake you groaned and then booed him for messing up.
Hearing you a group of people around you who did have a strong racially prejudice view against black players also started booing.
Off the back of that others in crowd who have an unconscious bias (IE. Don't realise they hold this bias) against black players, feel that they now feel comfortable and ok with booing Sanchez and targeting him continuously everytime he is going to touch the ball.

No one was shouting racist abuse. But they picked Sanchez (when many other white players have been just as bad or worse) as they one they felt comfortable using this approach against as a collective.

Also when manager's make very poor decisions, the crowd usually target the manager eg. Collectively shouting "you don't know what your doing" or singing the name of the player on the bench who they think should be coming on.

They don't boo the player the manager brought on to the pitch and continuing to boo the same player every time he touches the ball.

Again, I'm trying to make it clear that their is big difference between individual fans shouting abuse (not necessarily racist abuse) and a large collective suddenly targeting a single player every time he touches the ball. (This kind of booing is usually only reserved for Arsenal players, or someone who has disrespected club or cheated us in the past).

The only clear examples times it has happened like this before to one of our players by our own fans are against black players. Now IMO that's not a conscious decision, but an unconscious bias.

I maybe wrong, but that's how I view it. As this is a chat forum I'm just putting it out there as view or an opinion for discussion. Lots of people have expressed their own views which I think is a healthy thing. I'm not looking to say you're wrong, I'm just asking people to think about it...

Someone else used the term "playing the race card"... That is one of the most blatant examples of unconscious bias against people of colour being able to express their views....and is really really offensive.
That person said it, but some others were probably thinking it too... when I made suggestion that the race of a player could be an issue in how we react towards them due to our own unconscious bias.

Oh our fans boo the manager
I’ve given examples
Milan CL
United, jumps last game
Two games where we made negative subs
I do agree that the comment playing the race card is really not helpful
As ha what’s say… only sing or chant with words that you would also say to that persons face

I’m also 100% certain that a lot of the black and non white players we have, have all come with decent fess and therefore expectation attached. That by defaults causes frustration . Tanguy will have cost us £100m plus with wages by the time he leaves. That’s mega money for a player who hasn’t delivered anything.

dele… another player who isn’t white so still lived here. Because he tried every game. His game died a death here but the guy is loved still

some players got massively unfair stick and again I’ve used the examples previously… Armstrong and Bent are two. But again they were big money at the time

the booing IMO wasn’t about Sanchez. It was a big frustration that we’re that poor now we are brining on a player that has struggled to stand up in games … I don’t agree with booing. It’s so counter productive, but I do get it

 

[Glenda's Legs]

the booing IMO wasn’t about Sanchez. It was a big frustration that we’re that poor now we are brining on a player that has struggled to stand up in games … I don’t agree with booing. It’s so counter productive, but I do get it

Disagree about the booing - it was imo definitely about Sanchez.

Sorry to go and search out a post of yours (which I have truncated) but I remembered you saying this (because I agreed with it) :

really isn’t helped by the anti Semitic trope that gets dragged in calling levy names… it’s just daft and much more negative than good

That’s a good example of possible unconscious bias. A lot of the people doing the name calling would likely never describe themselves as anti-Semitic, and they most probably aren’t. But nonetheless in some sub or un conscious way they may be exhibiting a bias towards a stereotype of a Jewish person. Jewish people are tight. Levy is Jewish. Ergo Levy is tight. Obviously that won’t be everyone by any means. But it is good to take a step back sometimes and question why we react in a certain way to certain people but not others.
Unconscious bias is a personal thing so it’s impossible to ascribe it en masse, but it’s reasonable to question if it applies.