totalspurs
Jason Cundy
I maybe wrong, but I don't remember Winks being target booed during a match, everytime he got the ball whilst playing for Spurs.
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Davinson Sanchez
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
totalspurs
Jason Cundy
Dier never gets target booed by our fans...
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
He definitely got booed playing for us.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Christ
I’ve heard him boo’d and called every name under the sun
I’ve heard him get dogs abuse even when he wasn’t playing
Same was for David Bentley. Guy behind me in block 33 used to constantly call him out even when not on the pitch.
It’s genuinely weird behaviour
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Nah
He just gets called other names
totalspurs
Jason Cundy
Many players have been roundly booed when they have come off as a sub... only certain players have been targeted via a mob mentality during a game.
We've all heard groans or shouts like "f'ing wake up" or "your sh'it, get him off".
But mob targeting only happens when your collective unconscious bias kicks in. Same happens during England matches.
Subconsciously we can deny it's happening but it's happening.
We've all heard groans or shouts like "f'ing wake up" or "your sh'it, get him off".
But mob targeting only happens when your collective unconscious bias kicks in. Same happens during England matches.
Subconsciously we can deny it's happening but it's happening.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Hold on… are you talking about it being because he is a black player?
I’ve heard this a few times this week and strangely from people who don’t go or weren’t there
I was standing right in the middle of a big chunk of the booing and 2 of the guys doing it were black
IMO it’s nothing to do with skin colour and everything to do with expectation. It was the same when royal got jeered and bood (%0quickly forgotten by the fans). I believe it’s because as subs they are unambitious and negative, and nothing g to do with their skin colour
I’d hope not anyway but you never know for sure
What I will add is there is a view that black players are generally quicker and arguably more skilful so again that may create some unconscious bias with players like Sanchez and Royal who are polar opposites. What I would say is we tend to sign South Americans who strengths are not playing good technical football. I would never put Moura, Sanchez, Richarlison or royal in the highly technical bracket of players
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Not an easy way to respond with it being clear, I'm replying to your bolded responses as if they were numbered, hope that makes sense!
1. I'm glad you've backed down from the use of narrative as it should absolutely be banned from discourse for a while, that word has been taking some abuse of late. There is never much of a specific agenda with my posts other than how I feel at the time and I'm generally pretty open to taking on new information and new points of view.
My point re the muzzling is this idea of a football eutopia where fans are only permitted to share positive emotion, pay your money and either love the team unconditionally like a doting golden retriever or shut the fudge up. The people booing aren't seeing everything as rosy and are reacting to what's in front of them ie they're seeing the reality of how we're playing currently and the lack of direction at the club.
2. But the pre-emptive boos are based on the knowledge of how he generally plays. It's not a random choice or a false memory from the fans, he is an easy target because he is a bad footballer, not good enough, you've said that yourself in recent discussions on this.
Football fans are just about coming around to the idea of not yelling racial or homophobic slurs at players. That's progress. Unfortunately for Davo, being mediocre at football is not a protected characteristic in the way that race or sexuality has to be.
My exact point was that he absolutely should realize how bad he was and I'm pretty certain that he knew. You don't get subbed off 20 minutes after coming on as a sub if you're smashing it, kind of an obvious point.
4. Don't get the logic at all, no one is booing Sanchez because of his personality but it's the affect he can have on a team performance. Why should anyone else take flak if he sabotaged a performance (hypothetically, not saying he single handedly ballsed last game up). Should journalists start only rating the team as a whole?
5. He obviously isn't learning and is getting worse. If he came on and played brilliantly, people would have been cheering him, you could say football fans are fickle but for the most part they respond to what's in front of them and the fans saw what was predictable.
6. So you don't see it the gap in the argument? Booing Sanchez is bullying but booing opposition players is just part of the game? It's either all fair game or it isn't. And obviously the song was too far, it's not the question I posed but well done standing up for what is right.
7. I'm not suggesting you do anything, it's called a discussion and I don't have the answer, ideally the team would just start playing well enough that our own fans stop wanting to boo but that's a pipe dream for now! I've said it's difficult in terms of the hostile environment, not pleasant to sit and watch players get berated if you think they're trying their best but also hard to get an angry person to change their behavior if they're venting their frustrations. I do think that the outrage at fans is a distraction from acknowledging how bad we are currently (despite it obviously being possible to be a lot worse league position wise).
8. "Bullying behavior, traumatic abused" You have absolutely lost me here, I have no idea what you are talking about and it seems that you've somehow taken me sharing my personal experience of different styles of live football as a slight on your behavior at games ,of which I don't know anything about. I have attempted to read the paragraph a couple of times but sorry I can't grasp what you're getting at.
I just think that you're still possibly mad that I think Metallica are total toss
We are at an impasse. From my perspective, you simply don't see the points I'm making in context. I will avoid comment on every point, but I must say this ...
On point 2...no, he is NOT a 'bad footballer', he is a heavily capped international who has played in many major tournaments. In fact, you don't play just under 300 games across continents or get capped 52 times by your country if you are a 'bad footballer'. He is a footballer who is not playing well and needs a change of club, that is for sure, because he is simply not going to fit here. He doesn't play enough, and when he does, people have already made their minds up. I think that's ridiculous personally, but each to their own.
On point 6...do you genuinely not understand the context? I suppose not. Oh well. It isn't 'all' fair game or it 'isn't'...
On point 7...I find myself wondering how much better the team might've played against, say, Bournemouth, if our support was better?
p.s. Metallica? You be you my friend, all good with me
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Our support is an issueWe are at an impasse. From my perspective, you simply don't see the points I'm making in context. I will avoid comment on every point, but I must say this ...
On point 2...no, he is NOT a 'bad footballer', he is a heavily capped international who has played in many major tournaments. In fact, you don't play just under 300 games across continents or get capped 52 times by your country if you are a 'bad footballer'. He is a footballer who is not playing well and needs a change of club, that is for sure, because he is simply not going to fit here. He doesn't play enough, and when he does, people have already made their minds up. I think that's ridiculous personally, but each to their own.
On point 6...do you genuinely not understand the context? I suppose not. Oh well. It isn't 'all' fair game or it 'isn't'...
On point 7...I find myself wondering how much better the team might've played against, say, Bournemouth, if our support was better?
p.s. Metallica? You be you my friend, all good with me
But it’s a consequence of the performances now I’m afraid
totalspurs
Jason Cundy
Just because a couple of black fans join in with something taking place during a match, doesn't mean that they instantly know what's actually happening. They many have no understanding of unconscious bias.
It is possible that some people may have unconscious racial bias when booing black individuals. Unconscious bias refers to attitudes or stereotypes that affect our understanding, actions, and decisions in an unconscious manner, often without our awareness.
These biases can be harmful and perpetuate unfair treatment towards certain groups of people.
If you have heard this a few times this week already why are you so readily dismissing it as a reason for it not happening.
The moment I saw it taking place after the goal it crossed my mind, but I didn't ponder over it as I was too engrossed in the game.
But take a step back an look at the history of football and how racism manifest itself in the unconscious mind. The darker your skin the more easily you get targeted in a group failure unless you prove yourself to be exceptional.
It is possible that some people may have unconscious racial bias when booing black individuals. Unconscious bias refers to attitudes or stereotypes that affect our understanding, actions, and decisions in an unconscious manner, often without our awareness.
These biases can be harmful and perpetuate unfair treatment towards certain groups of people.
If you have heard this a few times this week already why are you so readily dismissing it as a reason for it not happening.
The moment I saw it taking place after the goal it crossed my mind, but I didn't ponder over it as I was too engrossed in the game.
But take a step back an look at the history of football and how racism manifest itself in the unconscious mind. The darker your skin the more easily you get targeted in a group failure unless you prove yourself to be exceptional.
JerusalemMan
Paul Robinson
Nope.
totalspurs
Jason Cundy
I've been saying for a long long long time I want Dier and Sanchez in that order) out of my club.
Doesn't mean I'd target boo either of them.
I've often thought why F'uck are we starting with him, or bring him on, but once on the pitch I want the s'hittest Spurs players to do well...cos that's how we win the match.
If we lose I will slag off anyone who played crap on, but after the game.
Definitely not when someone has the ball and is trying to bring the ball forward.
Doesn't mean I'd target boo either of them.
I've often thought why F'uck are we starting with him, or bring him on, but once on the pitch I want the s'hittest Spurs players to do well...cos that's how we win the match.
If we lose I will slag off anyone who played crap on, but after the game.
Definitely not when someone has the ball and is trying to bring the ball forward.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Have you ever been to a game?
IMO, as someone who was there, this had nothing to do with race or colour
Remember when Nuno got sacked and his subs got bood. That was a black player for black player (or mix raced). Difference was it was a negative sub. That’s what gets the fans against a manager at spurs
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
Nah, it’s a consequence of entitlement.
Not meaning anyone in particular, but there is a bit of it in this thread recently, “my club”, it’s not our club, it’s the club we choose to associate with.
Not everything in life is racially motivated and playing the race card every single time actually damages the fight against real racism.
Glenda's Legs
Paul Walsh
I don't think @totalspurs is saying the booing was racially motivated in and of itself - those that booed were motivated to do so by the belief that Sanchez is a rubbish player who should not have been subbed on, and then compounded when he made mistakes, those mistakes leading to more booing. That was the motivation. But it is fair to ask whether 'we' (i.e. anyone) might react differently to people based on certain characteristics - race might be one, but it could be class, age, weight etc - anything that might lead to a more biased reaction towards one individual that might not be applied to another individual doing the same thing, even if not deliberately so. I don't think it is something that can be applied en masse - it's up to individuals to think about whether they would treat others doing the same thing in the same way and if not, why that might be.
As an aside, I do feel that the phrase "playing the race card" also damages the fight against racism (and can be quite insulting - it's not top trumps) as it's too easy to use to put someone down, rather than ask why they believe they are a victim of racism.
Anyway, not wanting to derail further, I hope that there has been sufficient discussion amongst Spurs fans of what happened on Saturday that Sanchez won't get booed if he plays again. If Lenglet is out, we may need him.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I also think our black players get worse treatment from our fans than the white ones…. Ndombele and Lo Celso are a good example. Ndombele gets WAY more abuse than Lo Celso, despite their fees being similar and Ndombele actually having better output on the pitch for Spurs than Lo Celso.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
I think there is something in that, not sure it’s as simple as race, maybe nationality too, look at the difference between the treatment of Sessegnon and Royal, both the same age and work on similar parts of the pitch, but the expectation set and reaction were completely different.
I don’t agree on Ndombele and Lo Celso though, the latter did a lot defensively.
spurspinter1
Steve Carr
We are at an impasse. From my perspective, you simply don't see the points I'm making in context. I will avoid comment on every point, but I must say this ...
On point 2...no, he is NOT a 'bad footballer', he is a heavily capped international who has played in many major tournaments. In fact, you don't play just under 300 games across continents or get capped 52 times by your country if you are a 'bad footballer'. He is a footballer who is not playing well and needs a change of club, that is for sure, because he is simply not going to fit here. He doesn't play enough, and when he does, people have already made their minds up. I think that's ridiculous personally, but each to their own.
On point 6...do you genuinely not understand the context? I suppose not. Oh well. It isn't 'all' fair game or it 'isn't'...
On point 7...I find myself wondering how much better the team might've played against, say, Bournemouth, if our support was better?
p.s. Metallica? You be you my friend, all good with me
The lack of explanation on point 8 is a mystery but okay, no need to expand even if it makes very little sense, why bother helping other posters understand what you're getting at..
2. You said yourself he isn't good enough but okay, feel free to rest on how he is very good if you compare him to an average citizen of the world. As for people having made up their mind, he wasn't getting booed when he slotted in during the run in last season. Because he wasn't awful and dragging everyone else around him down.
6. This was my point I raised that you have failed to understand, so don't try and turn the smarmy high horse back around on me thanks. The "all" as in the "it's all fair game" is specifically regarding booing, not anything that goes further than that. But you appear to un-ironically consider booing as some kind of treacherous heinous traumatizing act if it's against Sanchez, so you must be as bothered of we boo opposing players right? Think of the damage it must cause, the shattered egos etc etc...Won't someone think of the children!?!?? (Simpsons quote of lady being hysterical if you aren't familiar and that last line seems out of context).
7. It should make no difference but now you can blame the fans for negatively affecting the teams results whilst feeling morally superior.
This is an odd debate as we both agree the booing individual players isn't productive, but you aren't giving fans any allowance as to why they're frustrated. Support the team better and they'll play better? As entitled as it may appear, the reality is it has to work the other way around, the fans react to what they see, they don't have the performance in their hands, that's down to the players and coaching staff.
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Agreed, it absolutely is the case, also see Royal vs. Doherty
When England loses a penalty shootout, my first thought is please don't let any of the black players miss a penalty, the racist asshats will crawl out of under their rocks in a second. Saka missed a penalty for Arsenal last week, want to guess what you saw on his social media?
Lots of players/professional sportspeople get abuse, but to pretend black players (and women) don't get a different type of abuse is just enabling ..