Davinson Sanchez

[DubSpur]

I don't think @totalspurs is saying the booing was racially motivated in and of itself - those that booed were motivated to do so by the belief that Sanchez is a rubbish player who should not have been subbed on, and then compounded when he made mistakes, those mistakes leading to more booing. That was the motivation. But it is fair to ask whether 'we' (i.e. anyone) might react differently to people based on certain characteristics - race might be one, but it could be class, age, weight etc - anything that might lead to a more biased reaction towards one individual that might not be applied to another individual doing the same thing, even if not deliberately so. I don't think it is something that can be applied en masse - it's up to individuals to think about whether they would treat others doing the same thing in the same way and if not, why that might be.
As an aside, I do feel that the phrase "playing the race card" also damages the fight against racism (and can be quite insulting - it's not top trumps) as it's too easy to use to put someone down, rather than ask why they believe they are a victim of racism.

Anyway, not wanting to derail further, I hope that there has been sufficient discussion amongst Spurs fans of what happened on Saturday that Sanchez won't get booed if he plays again. If Lenglet is out, we may need him.

The point is that it had nothing to do with race. The booing was because he has been poor, any objective measure would say he has been poor and that impression has nothing to do with race. The booing was wrong but there was no unconscious bias at play. Was there unconscious bias at play when Winks got booed for poor performances? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and there's no need to delve for more meaning behind it.

 

[DubSpur]

I also think our black players get worse treatment from our fans than the white ones…. Ndombele and Lo Celso are a good example. Ndombele gets WAY more abuse than Lo Celso, despite their fees being similar and Ndombele actually having better output on the pitch for Spurs than Lo Celso.

Possibly, but do you not think that a large chunk of the abuse Ndombele gets is down to effort? Lo Celso has been poor but puts in the effort and had at least one spell when he was decent.

 

[DubSpur]

Agreed, it absolutely is the case, also see Royal vs. Doherty

When England loses a penalty shootout, my first thought is please don't let any of the black players miss a penalty, the racist asshats will crawl out of under their rocks in a second. Saka missed a penalty for Arsenal last week, want to guess what you saw on his social media?

Lots of players/professional sportspeople get abuse, but to pretend black players (and women) don't get a different type of abuse is just enabling ..

That abuse is racism, that is different to judging peoples abilities on unconscious bias and reacting to it.
And of course some black players get horrid abuse.

 

[billyiddo]

The thing with subconscious bias is you don't know you're doing it...

People are quicker to jump to abuse black players imo and the abuse if often harsher - doesn't mean that the person dishing it out is a card carrying racist though.

 

[Raziel]

The thing with unconscious bias is you don't know you're doing it...

People are quicker to jump to abuse black players imo and the abuse if often harsher - doesn't mean that the person dishing it out is a card carrying racist though.

You don't have to be a card carrying racist to act/be racist though, it's like when people say "he's one of the good ones"

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think there is something in that, not sure it’s as simple as race, maybe nationality too, look at the difference between the treatment of Sessegnon and Royal, both the same age and work on similar parts of the pitch, but the expectation set and reaction were completely different.

I don’t agree on Ndombele and Lo Celso though, the latter did a lot defensively.

I must've blinked and missed that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Agreed, it absolutely is the case, also see Royal vs. Doherty

When England loses a penalty shootout, my first thought is please don't let any of the black players miss a penalty, the racist asshats will crawl out of under their rocks in a second. Saka missed a penalty for Arsenal last week, want to guess what you saw on his social media?

Lots of players/professional sportspeople get abuse, but to pretend black players (and women) don't get a different type of abuse is just enabling ..

I can remember Chris Armstrong getting a hard time at Spurs, despite actually not having a bad goal record, Iverson on the other hand got a far easier ride (despite being a worse player).

I can remember Kanoute constantly being called lazy, whereas Berbatov was called cool or calm or that he 'conserves his energy for the right moment'.

Dele Ali got lots of stick on here for being on social media too much or caring about fashion more than football etc.... Whereas Regulion had no such comments despite being very similar.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Possibly, but do you not think that a large chunk of the abuse Ndombele gets is down to effort? Lo Celso has been poor but puts in the effort and had at least one spell when he was decent.

I didn't see Lo Celso putting in much effort to be honest, he trundled around the pitch (slowly) not doing much.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I didn't see Lo Celso putting in much effort to be honest, he trundled around the pitch (slowly) not doing much.

To go a little further on this.... I took a look at the PL stats for Lo Celso and Ndombele.

The first number in each case is Lo Celso, second Ndombele

Games: 55 vs 63
Goals: 1 vs 6
Assists: 3 vs 5
Shots: 42 vs 36
Shots on target: 10 vs 14
Accuracy: 24% vs 39%
Big Changes Created: 5 vs 7
Big Chances Missed: 3 vs 1
Passes per match: 30.64 vs 32.83
Through balls: 9 vs 19
Tackles: 87 vs 75
Blocks: 10 vs 15
Interceptions: 17 vs 34
Clearances: 22 vs 18
Headed Clearances: 9 vs 5
Fouls conceded: 49 vs 43
Yellow/red Cards: 11/0 vs 7/0
Recoveries: 194 vs 228
Duals Won: 229 vs 315
Duals Lost: 244 vs 237
Successful 50/50s: 49 vs 124

Lo Celso more shots (but less on target) more tackles clearances and headed clearances. Ndombele better otherwise. Duals and successful 50/50s are particularly scathing on Lo Celso (especially considering he is neither a goal scorer nor goal creator).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed, it absolutely is the case, also see Royal vs. Doherty

When England loses a penalty shootout, my first thought is please don't let any of the black players miss a penalty, the racist asshats will crawl out of under their rocks in a second. Saka missed a penalty for Arsenal last week, want to guess what you saw on his social media?

Lots of players/professional sportspeople get abuse, but to pretend black players (and women) don't get a different type of abuse is just enabling ..

No
To pretend a player got bood because he was black rather than playing really poorly is weak imo
I do agree black players do get racially abused by the Sanchez example was not the case IMO
At least not where I was sat here in the ground (I can’t speak for everyone)

And I stand by my comment the other day, that as fans no one should say or sing anything that they wouldn’t do face to face to that player

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I can remember Chris Armstrong getting a hard time at Spurs, despite actually not having a bad goal record, Iverson on the other hand got a far easier ride (despite being a worse player).

I can remember Kanoute constantly being called lazy, whereas Berbatov was called cool or calm or that he 'conserves his energy for the right moment'.

Dele Ali got lots of stick on here for being on social media too much or caring about fashion more than football etc.... Whereas Regulion had no such comments despite being very similar.

You also need to consider who they were replacing
Armstrong got dogs abuse because he was replacing Klinsmann. He was a good player for us
sanchez has been backed until recently.. weirdly it’s when he has been awful. I fell really sorry for the bloke as he looks mentally broken here
Darren Bent has horrendous abuse despite a decent scoring rate. That was never helped by Harry’s comments.
The most abuse I’ve ever seen was for adebeyor before we signed him and Campbell of course
Both became enemies of us because of who they played for… but weirdly both played for us and we’re never abused when here IIRC

one common theme with some of the black players getting more abuse (racist and not) is that they have generally come with big fees. That’s not their fault though

 

[billyiddo]

You don't have to be a card carrying racist to act/be racist though, it's like when people say "he's one of the good ones"

Subconciois bias affects all people, even those who don't have a racist bone in their body

 

[DubSpur]

To go a little further on this.... I took a look at the PL stats for Lo Celso and Ndombele.

The first number in each case is Lo Celso, second Ndombele

Games: 55 vs 63
Goals: 1 vs 6
Assists: 3 vs 5
Shots: 42 vs 36
Shots on target: 10 vs 14
Accuracy: 24% vs 39%
Big Changes Created: 5 vs 7
Big Chances Missed: 3 vs 1
Passes per match: 30.64 vs 32.83
Through balls: 9 vs 19
Tackles: 87 vs 75
Blocks: 10 vs 15
Interceptions: 17 vs 34
Clearances: 22 vs 18
Headed Clearances: 9 vs 5
Fouls conceded: 49 vs 43
Yellow/red Cards: 11/0 vs 7/0
Recoveries: 194 vs 228
Duals Won: 229 vs 315
Duals Lost: 244 vs 237
Successful 50/50s: 49 vs 124

Lo Celso more shots (but less on target) more tackles clearances and headed clearances. Ndombele better otherwise. Duals and successful 50/50s are particularly scathing on Lo Celso (especially considering he is neither a goal scorer nor goal creator).

One stat you missed out on is mins played. Lo Celso played 2668 min compared to Ndombeles 3599.
Might be more revealing if you used per 90 mins. It swings a good few of those stats in Lo Celso's favour.

Ndombele is a far bigger talent than Lo Celso so more would be expected from him.

 

[DubSpur]

You also need to consider who they were replacing
Armstrong got dogs abuse because he was replacing Klinsmann. He was a good player for us
sanchez has been backed until recently.. weirdly it’s when he has been awful. I fell really sorry for the bloke as he looks mentally broken here
Darren Bent has horrendous abuse despite a decent scoring rate. That was never helped by Harry’s comments.
The most abuse I’ve ever seen was for adebeyor before we signed him and Campbell of course
Both became enemies of us because of who they played for… but weirdly both played for us and we’re never abused when here IIRC

one common theme with some of the black players getting more abuse (racist and not) is that they have generally come with big fees. That’s not their fault though

If you come with a big fee the expectations are higher and performances, rightly or wrongly, are compared to those expectations.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If you come with a big fee the expectations are higher and performances, rightly or wrongly, are compared to those expectations.

That’s what I think is part of the issue

 

[Grays_1890]

You also need to consider who they were replacing
Armstrong got dogs abuse because he was replacing Klinsmann. He was a good player for us
sanchez has been backed until recently.. weirdly it’s when he has been awful. I fell really sorry for the bloke as he looks mentally broken here
Darren Bent has horrendous abuse despite a decent scoring rate. That was never helped by Harry’s comments.
The most abuse I’ve ever seen was for adebeyor before we signed him and Campbell of course
Both became enemies of us because of who they played for… but weirdly both played for us and we’re never abused when here IIRC

one common theme with some of the black players getting more abuse (racist and not) is that they have generally come with big fees. That’s not their fault though

The washing elephants chant was one that should have never been defended, such a tragic song to sing, considering it's racist connotations.

I think people lump on the hate for players regardless of skintone when here though, like I said on another thread you only need one truth for all lies to become fact and we have that with Lloris, Romero, Dier we had it with Winks and Trips at the time, hell Winks got dogs abuse at times. Lloris can't get praised for good games, gets blamed for mistakes that ain't his and gets called a cnut on this forum regularly for mistakes. Now he does make mistakes, no denial but the lumpathon them knows no facts because minds have been made up.

Nature of the beast unfortunately

Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk

 

[billyiddo]

One stat you missed out on is mins played. Lo Celso played 2668 min compared to Ndombeles 3599.
Might be more revealing if you used per 90 mins. It swings a good few of those stats in Lo Celso's favour.

Ndombele is a far bigger talent than Lo Celso so more would be expected from him.

I worked the following out the last time this came up in discussion:

GLC : 7 G/A in 3347 minutes - 478 minutes per contribution (1 in 5.3 games)
Ndombele : 15 G/A in 4107 minutes - 273 minutes per contribution (pretty much 1 in 3)

GLC : 4.5m per g/a (32m according to transfermarkt)

Ndomb - 4m per g/a (60m)


Both ultimately were poor buys, but one clearly much worse in terms of output than the other and for my money a much worse player all round.

They show an additional loan fee of 16m for him in season 2019/20.

Then that changes him from 4.5m per contribution to 6.5m - whichever way it's cut he's certainly the worse buy of the two, objectively speaking

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The washing elephants chant was one that should have never been defended, such a tragic song to sing, considering it's racist connotations.

I think people lump on the hate for players regardless of skintone when here though, like I said on another thread you only need one truth for all lies to become fact and we have that with Lloris, Romero, Dier we had it with Winks and Trips at the time, hell Winks got dogs abuse at times. Lloris can't get praised for good games, gets blamed for mistakes that ain't his and gets called a cnut on this forum regularly for mistakes. Now he does make mistakes, no denial but the lumpathon them knows no facts because minds have been made up.

Nature of the beast unfortunately

Sent from my SM-A127F using Fapatalk

Exactly
I’m all for calling someone a c€%t for their actions if I don’t agree with them
But the one thing no one can control is their parents and there or their heritage
Picking on someone for that is just fudging stupid

 

[DubSpur]

I worked the following out the last time this came up in discussion:

That is just focusing on G/A, there's other aspects of the game.

 

[billyiddo]

That is just focusing on G/A, there's other aspects of the game.

Of course I was just highlighting the objective numbers - i don't think Lo Celso, given his lack of minutes, due to saving himself for Argentina half the time he was out, contributed more on the pitch outside of those areas in any way shape or form to be honest with you.

Given the subject at hand relates to the abuse one player got, and still gets, over the other there's certainly not really anything to argue Ndombele was so bad in comparison to justify why he got the attention and i do think it's a good example of subconciois bias at play.