• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Davinson Sanchez

thfcsteff said:
There were boos as he was about to come on.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that's true but it doesn't negate the order of events I detailed above nor the point behind it - Booing a player takes effort and isn't productive but even the natural understandable reaction of twenty thousand people in the south stand tutting / groaning after a bad first touch can affect a player with weak mentality.

Interesting to shift the perspective to the dangers of booing opposition players, take someone like Ronaldo who has well as being a bit of a clam, has that elite mentality. If anything he seemed to thrive when he had the majority of the stadium giving him dogs abuse: "These pricks have the audacity to boo me? I'm going to show them what I can do to shut them up". It's as far away as you can get from Sanchez's reaction, to go in to his shell.

Like how they've all responded to Conte's apparently unacceptable criticism. By being called out as brickhouses, they as a collective have not done much to prove him wrong. But avoidance tactics make it much easier to score points being outraged at Conte and the fans who believe we should be doing better. Everyone should just be clapping and cheering like parents at a school sports day....

Iirc we have had a discussion vaguely on this before, I do find it an intriguing subject. Anything other than positivity is unacceptable so muzzle up the realists. Given that you're never going to stop people moaning, the reality is it's more about helping players not be so affected by it, if it's true we only appointed a club psychologist a year ago* it shows we're someway behind in this respect. I'm sure a message from Levy placed on the seats saying "Whilst we might be getting battered by the likes of Southampton and Bournemouth at home, please don't boo players during the game as it hurts their feelings" would go down really well!

*I'm absolutely not 100% on this point, it's a vague recollection of something I read so could be total flimflam!
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Yet city bring in kids and give time game time
And they tend to turn out well
Instead we persevere with players who are mentally struggling …
Click to expand...
Who are these kids that they give game time to? Rico Lewis is the only one that has got a decent amount of game time and even he has only had 3 or 4 starts in the league. The only other one that has had game time is Cole Palmer and that is only a few mins here and there. It's also easier to bring in a youth player into a team that is playing well, in a good atmosphere and isn't going to be under pressure from the start compared to the situation we are in with the team all over the place, leaking goals and low on confidence. It's a recipe for disaster for a young player and is likely to knock his confidence and set them back.

Also, the only player that City have brought through their ranks recently is Foden. In the same time frame we've brought through Skipp. I wouldn't hold them up as some model for developing youth, there's other teams in the league that are much better at it.
 
DubSpur said:
Who are these kids that they give game time to? Rico Lewis is the only one that has got a decent amount of game time and even he has only had 3 or 4 starts in the league. The only other one that has had game time is Cole Palmer and that is only a few mins here and there. It's also easier to bring in a youth player into a team that is playing well, in a good atmosphere and isn't going to be under pressure from the start compared to the situation we are in with the team all over the place, leaking goals and low on confidence. It's a recipe for disaster for a young player and is likely to knock his confidence and set them back.

Also, the only player that City have brought through their ranks recently is Foden. In the same time frame we've brought through Skipp. I wouldn't hold them up as some model for developing youth, there's other teams in the league that are much better at it.
Click to expand...
Skipp wouldn’t be starting if we didn’t have injuries
Rico Lewis came in and they let their best player of last season leave because they backed him
Cole Palmer is the best of the lot IMO and they will bring him into the starting team more next season
We don’t take a chance
We would rather play someone out of position
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Skipp wouldn’t be starting if we didn’t have injuries
Rico Lewis came in and they let their best player of last season leave because they backed him
Cole Palmer is the best of the lot IMO and they will bring him into the starting team more next season
We don’t take a chance
We would rather play someone out of position
Click to expand...
Skipp played a lot of games before his injury last season and was a first choice player. I rate Skipp higher than PEH and feel he should be starting ahead of him all season, other will say PEH.
Have they really backed Rico Lewis? He's played a handful of games. They didn't let a RB go which is where he plays or let go their best player from last season.
Cole Palmer might be the best of the lot but has very limited game time.
Anyone that we have as far along in their development as those two are currently out on loan so they can get proper game time.

The situation of the two teams is totally different, one playing great football and full of confidence, the other a mess, a toxic atmosphere with the crowd on the teams back. One is a good environment to slowly introduce a young player, the other couldn't be further from the ideal environment.
 
DubSpur said:
Skipp played a lot of games before his injury last season and was a first choice player. I rate Skipp higher than PEH and feel he should be starting ahead of him all season, other will say PEH.
Have they really backed Rico Lewis? He's played a handful of games. They didn't let a RB go which is where he plays or let go their best player from last season.
Cole Palmer might be the best of the lot but has very limited game time.
Anyone that we have as far along in their development as those two are currently out on loan so they can get proper game time.

The situation of the two teams is totally different, one playing great football and full of confidence, the other a mess, a toxic atmosphere with the crowd on the teams back. One is a good environment to slowly introduce a young player, the other couldn't be further from the ideal environment.
Click to expand...
They let a player join Bayern (Cancelo) who was widely regarded as their best player last season
I fully agree our situation is toxic. It’s why bringing in youth and energy can make a positive difference
I remember Tangangas debut vs pool and the positivity that brought to the fans
 
spurspinter1 said:
I don't doubt that's true but it doesn't negate the order of events I detailed above nor the point behind it - Booing a player takes effort and isn't productive but even the natural understandable reaction of twenty thousand people in the south stand tutting / groaning after a bad first touch can affect a player with weak mentality.

Interesting to shift the perspective to the dangers of booing opposition players, take someone like Ronaldo who has well as being a bit of a clam, has that elite mentality. If anything he seemed to thrive when he had the majority of the stadium giving him dogs abuse: "These pricks have the audacity to boo me? I'm going to show them what I can do to shut them up". It's as far away as you can get from Sanchez's reaction, to go in to his shell.

Like how they've all responded to Conte's apparently unacceptable criticism. By being called out as brickhouses, they as a collective have not done much to prove him wrong. But avoidance tactics make it much easier to score points being outraged at Conte and the fans who believe we should be doing better. Everyone should just be clapping and cheering like parents at a school sports day....

Iirc we have had a discussion vaguely on this before, I do find it an intriguing subject. Anything other than positivity is unacceptable so muzzle up the realists. Given that you're never going to stop people moaning, the reality is it's more about helping players not be so affected by it, if it's true we only appointed a club psychologist a year ago* it shows we're someway behind in this respect. I'm sure a message from Levy placed on the seats saying "Whilst we might be getting battered by the likes of Southampton and Bournemouth at home, please don't boo players during the game as it hurts their feelings" would go down really well!

*I'm absolutely not 100% on this point, it's a vague recollection of something I read so could be total flimflam!
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with 'muzzling up the realists'...playing into that narrative is, IMO, dangerous. Criticism is worthy, but in my line of work, you need context and circumstances to also be taken into account. That is besides the very human element of just knowing it is wrong to spacegoat/boo any player repeatedly.

Yes, the reality probably is to help players grow even thicker skins, but trust me, I won't ever stop speaking out at spacegoaters (cowards). I don't want them representing me or my club frankly.

I hope you're able to differentiate between cowardly abusive target bullying and booing a performance. If not, then I fear this convo has been for nought.
 
thfcsteff said:
It has nothing to do with 'muzzling up the realists'...playing into that narrative is, IMO, dangerous. Criticism is worthy, but in my line of work, you need context and circumstances to also be taken into account. That is besides the very human element of just knowing it is wrong to spacegoat/boo any player repeatedly.

Yes, the reality probably is to help players grow even thicker skins, but trust me, I won't ever stop speaking out at spacegoaters (cowards). I don't want them representing me or my club frankly.

I hope you're able to differentiate between cowardly abusive target bullying and booing a performance. If not, then I fear this convo has been for nought.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure of which narrative you're implying I'm playing in to, feel free to enlighten me. The new n word (narrative) just seems to be a way of shutting down a discussion if someone else offers a different opinion to yours, it's an incredibly easy and non-descript button to press.

If booing a specific player for his mistakes is bullying then you must have had an easy ride at school and I'm glad to hear it! In the various discussions on this subject I've always said it's not productive, but waiting until the end of the game and booing the collective somehow makes it more acceptable in your mind? If anything, it could be worse if people are sitting there bottling up the rage to explode at the final whistle like a pressure cooker.

Glad we agree on the thicker skins part, Sanchez whether advised by the crowd or not should realize that his performance wasn't up to standard and we hope that he does everything he can to learn from it. The players have to learn to phase out the negative and the positive from the crowd alike, it's what the coaching team says that is important. Sanchez hasn't become a brick player because he was booed, he was booed because has been brick. Again, before the pearl clutching commences, I'm not saying the individual booing is a good thing to do.

Is booing opposition players repeatedly okay then? I wonder if in your head it's not bullying if the target is Sol for example, or if you could attempt to make a rational argument that it's justified as he exercise his right to change employer and we should either applaud him or remain silent.

As discussed with Raziel in another thread, I can totally get that the division in the crowd between those booing and those who consider it an outrage to boo makes it unpleasant experience and that does suck. What other fans of your club do shouldn't ever be a representation of yourself, it's not something you can control and wanting everybody to match your sensibilities is unrealistic.

There's an interesting aspect (for me at least) where the edge is a crucial part of it, going to a couple of games in the Olympics where it was very family friendly, non partizan and happy clappy it was just a bit crap. As with everything it's that balance, a bit of edge to show people care but not to the stage where people are frothing at the mouth and baying for blood if a mistake is made.
 
Last edited:
I don't agree with booing individual players at matches, unless extreme circumstances, but a couple of points - them earning 10's of 000's of pounds means i find it hard to have too much sympathy/care too much about it is a topic, afaic that's substantial enough financial compensation to have to deal with a few boos once in a while and also if a player is unable to cope with, what in the grand scheme of things is, something quite minor like a few boos then they frankly aren't cut out for the top end of the game and the pressure it brings.
 
Answers in bold-face below

spurspinter1 said:
I'm not sure of which narrative you're implying I'm playing in to, feel free to enlighten me. The new n word (narrative) just seems to be a way of shutting down a discussion if someone else offers a different opinion to yours, it's an incredibly easy and non-descript button to press.

Maybe in your context, not in mine. But how about we compromise and use the word 'generalization', because that's most certainly what 'muzzling up the realists' suggests. As if only 'realists' boo? I'm sure you didn't mean that!

If booing a specific player for his mistakes is bullying then you must have had an easy ride at school and I'm glad to hear it!

See, this is where you've missed an important point. Sanchez is booed before he even plays. He's ridiculed despite barely playing. Dier is targeted relentlessly regardless of performance. Neither are at the top of their games, and their games are certainly fading in quality...but they are hurled upon before they set foot onto the pitch! I know I know, 'what a softie for calling it bullying, I've seen way worse' etc, etc. Sorry to hear that if so. But how does that trivialize something as important as what has happened with Sanchez?

https://www.gov.uk/bullying-at-school/bullying-a-definition

In the various discussions on this subject I've always said it's not productive, but waiting until the end of the game and booing the collective somehow makes it more acceptable in your mind? If anything, it could be worse if people are sitting there bottling up the rage to explode at the final whistle like a pressure cooker.

It's not acceptable IMO, however if fans boo at the end of a game it is not going to be construed as personal.

Glad we agree on the thicker skins part, Sanchez whether advised by the crowd or not should realize that his performance wasn't up to standard and we hope that he does everything he can to learn from it.

Do you really think that a player who has played sporadic minutes for several seasons in both right and left positions and often in a hurry isn't learning from it? Do you think that as a professional footballer, he does not know when he is playing poorly?

The players have to learn to phase out the negative and the positive from the crowd alike, it's what the coaching team says that is important.

Do you genuinely believe they don't already? How many times has he been booed in the past, yet he's still ready to play and give his all? Come on!


Sanchez hasn't become a brick player because he was booed, he was booed because has been brick. Again, before the pearl clutching commences, I'm not saying the individual booing is a good thing to do.

No he ISN"T just booed 'because he's brick' he's also booed because he's an easy target!!!!


Is booing opposition players repeatedly okay then? I wonder if in your head it's not bullying if the target is Sol for example, or if you could attempt to make a rational argument that it's justified as he exercise his right to change employer and we should either applaud him or remain silent.

What? Look...first of all, I actively stood up at games and told people who sang 'the tree' song to STFU. No bueno.
Secondly, Campbell made a planned and very hostile gesture, which he deserved reminding of!



As discussed with Raziel in another thread, I can totally get that the division in the crowd between those booing and those who consider it an outrage to boo makes it unpleasant experience and that does suck. What other fans of your club do shouldn't ever be a representation of yourself, it's not something you can control and wanting everybody to match your sensibilities is unrealistic.

So, are you suggesting I should just be quiet and accept it?

There's an interesting aspect (for me at least) where the edge is a crucial part of it, going to a couple of games in the Olympics where it was very family friendly, non partizan and happy clappy it was just a bit crap. As with everything it's that balance, a bit of edge to show people care but not to the stage where people are frothing at the mouth and baying for blood if a mistake is made.

Hahaha, do you think I go to games (home and away) and sit quietly, politely clapping and never singing a song/swearing in anger? If you want me to get into a long-winded post about the importance of recognizing feral/tribal behavior as something no-one wants eliminated from football because it is a part of all of us, then great, I can. If you simply want to believe that just because someone doesn't believe in the bullying behavior of systematic and traumatic abused, then I suppose we've nothing left to discuss win this topic.
Click to expand...
 
thfcsteff said:
Answers in bold-face below
Click to expand...

Not an easy way to respond with it being clear, I'm replying to your bolded responses as if they were numbered, hope that makes sense!

1. I'm glad you've backed down from the use of narrative as it should absolutely be banned from discourse for a while, that word has been taking some abuse of late. There is never much of a specific agenda with my posts other than how I feel at the time and I'm generally pretty open to taking on new information and new points of view.

My point re the muzzling is this idea of a football eutopia where fans are only permitted to share positive emotion, pay your money and either love the team unconditionally like a doting golden retriever or shut the fudge up. The people booing aren't seeing everything as rosy and are reacting to what's in front of them ie they're seeing the reality of how we're playing currently and the lack of direction at the club.

2. But the pre-emptive boos are based on the knowledge of how he generally plays. It's not a random choice or a false memory from the fans, he is an easy target because he is a bad footballer, not good enough, you've said that yourself in recent discussions on this.

Football fans are just about coming around to the idea of not yelling racial or homophobic slurs at players. That's progress. Unfortunately for Davo, being mediocre at football is not a protected characteristic in the way that race or sexuality has to be.

My exact point was that he absolutely should realize how bad he was and I'm pretty certain that he knew. You don't get subbed off 20 minutes after coming on as a sub if you're smashing it, kind of an obvious point.

4. Don't get the logic at all, no one is booing Sanchez because of his personality but it's the affect he can have on a team performance. Why should anyone else take flak if he sabotaged a performance (hypothetically, not saying he single handedly ballsed last game up). Should journalists start only rating the team as a whole?

5. He obviously isn't learning and is getting worse. If he came on and played brilliantly, people would have been cheering him, you could say football fans are fickle but for the most part they respond to what's in front of them and the fans saw what was predictable.

6. So you don't see it the gap in the argument? Booing Sanchez is bullying but booing opposition players is just part of the game? It's either all fair game or it isn't. And obviously the song was too far, it's not the question I posed but well done standing up for what is right.

7. I'm not suggesting you do anything, it's called a discussion and I don't have the answer, ideally the team would just start playing well enough that our own fans stop wanting to boo but that's a pipe dream for now! I've said it's difficult in terms of the hostile environment, not pleasant to sit and watch players get berated if you think they're trying their best but also hard to get an angry person to change their behavior if they're venting their frustrations. I do think that the outrage at fans is a distraction from acknowledging how bad we are currently (despite it obviously being possible to be a lot worse league position wise).

8. "Bullying behavior, traumatic abused" You have absolutely lost me here, I have no idea what you are talking about and it seems that you've somehow taken me sharing my personal experience of different styles of live football as a slight on your behavior at games ,of which I don't know anything about. I have attempted to read the paragraph a couple of times but sorry I can't grasp what you're getting at.

I just think that you're still possibly mad that I think Metallica are total toss ;)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back