Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
HELL NO I say again hell no.
He is an average striker at best. Rodon might be a decent centre half though.
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Daniel Levy - Chairman
- Thread starter Howard Webb
- Start date
HELL NO I say again hell no.
He is an average striker at best. Rodon might be a decent centre half though.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
I should imagine David Bentley lived long in the memory for Levy. He has spent money. There is a big misconception. He's ready to throw cash at players. But he is also prudent and careful. So he should be. Players like Bently were a chronic waste of money. But you have to take a long view, and we have had far more hits than misses. Some of the hits have been spectacular. Levy was instrumental in going out to Croatia and hunting down Luka Modric for example. A converted player whom we knew was worth investing in.
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SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Jeff Brooks
Andy Reid
Oops! Sorry pressed post twice 
Still learning about the Forum
Sorry!
Well I figured somebody might pull me up regarding the extra couple of £m. BUT looking at it another way - if an extra £2M gets you the the player and he helps get you Champions League qualification then the ROI is well worth the extra. Could we have got Skriniar? Was that a Money issue? I have watched our defence through my fingers this year - a conceded goal waiting to happen at every opposition attack. So its about having the confidence to invest - to take a punt - and as a result achieve more in terms of on field success and financial return.
The bogey man of Risdale seems to be brought up to prove a point that Levy is excellent at financial management - that is so long ago now and a somewhat isolated example - can we move on from that?
And finally I think your point about 5 X a saving of £2m gets us a player at £10M, tells me a lot about your view of the players we should be in for - unless I have misunderstood you. We can't keep shopping at TK Maxx and expect to be welcome at the top table and achieve consistent Champs League qualification AND the odd trophy!
Still learning about the Forum
Sorry!
Well I figured somebody might pull me up regarding the extra couple of £m. BUT looking at it another way - if an extra £2M gets you the the player and he helps get you Champions League qualification then the ROI is well worth the extra. Could we have got Skriniar? Was that a Money issue? I have watched our defence through my fingers this year - a conceded goal waiting to happen at every opposition attack. So its about having the confidence to invest - to take a punt - and as a result achieve more in terms of on field success and financial return.
The bogey man of Risdale seems to be brought up to prove a point that Levy is excellent at financial management - that is so long ago now and a somewhat isolated example - can we move on from that?
And finally I think your point about 5 X a saving of £2m gets us a player at £10M, tells me a lot about your view of the players we should be in for - unless I have misunderstood you. We can't keep shopping at TK Maxx and expect to be welcome at the top table and achieve consistent Champs League qualification AND the odd trophy!
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Oops! Sorry pressed post twice
Still learning about the Forum
Sorry!
Well I figured somebody might pull me up regarding the extra couple of £m. BUT looking at it another way - if an extra £2M gets you the the player and he helps get you Champions League qualification then the ROI is well worth the extra. Could we have got Skriniar? Was that a Money issue? I have watched our defence through my fingers this year - a conceded goal waiting to happen at every opposition attack. So its about having the confidence to invest - to take a punt - and as a result achieve more in terms of on field success and financial return.
The bogey man of Risdale seems to be brought up to prove a point that Levy is excellent at financial management - that is so long ago now and a somewhat isolated example - can we move on from that?
And finally I think your point about 5 X a saving of £2m gets us a player at £10M, tells me a lot about your view of the players we should be in for - unless I have misunderstood you. We can't keep shopping at TK Maxx and expect to be welcome at the top table and achieve consistent Champs League qualification AND the odd trophy!
Let me put your mind at rest a little if I can: Levy is fully aware of this dichotomy. Every good businessman is. Where you save expenditure to gain a competitive advantage, and where do you invest to grow? It is one of the keys to any business. Saving money can be a false economy.
It is not an exact science of course. We will have hits and misses. Currently, we are not fully solvent; few large clubs are right now. But we can consider ourselves a large club now - thanks to Mr L. Just as Risdale is outdated (there are many other examples) so is Spurs shopping at TK Max. We are not that bargain-basement anymore. Everyone knows there are all manner of expensive transfer flops. Just spending money is no guaranteed of success. You can risk it all and fall flat on your face.
So what will we do? Spend within our means, try to search for value at Selfridges and do the same as we did, but at a higher level. Just let the crazy baldy get on wit it.
Then Why are West Ham brick (and one decent season in 20 years doesn't change that)? Why are Southampton brick? And why are Everton brick?
Aston Villa were a constant member of the premier league until a few years ago, why did they go really brick?
Where are their state of the art stadiums and training grounds? Their Champions League runs? Their constant qualification for Europe?
Or did they all donate their PL TV money to charity??
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
This is totally fair. I think ENIC's strategy kept us consistently back at 6th position, never dropping too far, and never consistently going beyond until Poch came along.
I think they had a pretty good theory that kept us doing that, in a way that Everton or Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Villa never really figured out. Saudi Sportswashing Machine have just had bad owners, that also were pretty terrible on the football side. Villa seemed like they over-extended themselves, relied too much on the owner's money, so then had a negative drop.
For the consistency of keeping us in the top 6 while building a stadium, I think ENIC deserve massive credit. I think it was a key part of their strategy to maintain the value and profile of the club that meant we could fill a 60k stadium.
I just don't think they have the stomach or desire to do what it takes to go significantly beyond this point. I don't know that it is worth it for them. I don't know how many league titles or UCL runs are needed for the value of the club to markedly improve, and what it would cost from ENIC's point of view to invest to get us to that point probably isn't worth it. I also think they shat the bed with the one coach that could have gotten us there consistently nearly within their original constraints.
But yeah, they deserve huge credit for keeping us on a platform over near enough 15 years where we've been the best of the rest. And then for a while we were genuinely part of the best. I think the next step is another job - one that they really need to figure out. The last 18 years or so were building up to the stadium. Now we're here - are they exhibiting the traits of a group that feels like they have a plan to get us there? Not for my money they aren't.
You don't feel they are the group to take them further, but I don't see any evidence that says they are not the group to take the next step. Yes, you can say there's not much evidence to say they are, but the stadium was barely open when covid hit. In the time that it was open we seen our biggest transfer spend in a window. I feel they have got us this far and deserve the next 5 years to show they can start winning trophies. If they cannot make that change then fair enough, at that point they have to be looked at. But until then I'm willing to give them time to see the fruits of their labour over the last 20 years.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Think about the tools Levy has at his disposal. Football is not an exact science. You put 11 guys on 1.76 acres and try and get them to score more goals than the other side.
Levy can never guarantee success. In his role he can only deliver the ingredients. What are they? The best possible players within our budget. The best facilities to increase our budget, and improve our players. We are not going to gamble and spend more than we earn.
Has Levy delivered in putting us in a competitive place, has he delivered the ingredients? The stats suggest he has. Top 6 in 13 of his 20 seasons. A game-changing stadium, and svelt training complex. Everyone has their faults, but honestly, big picture, what is not to like?
Levy can never guarantee success. In his role he can only deliver the ingredients. What are they? The best possible players within our budget. The best facilities to increase our budget, and improve our players. We are not going to gamble and spend more than we earn.
Has Levy delivered in putting us in a competitive place, has he delivered the ingredients? The stats suggest he has. Top 6 in 13 of his 20 seasons. A game-changing stadium, and svelt training complex. Everyone has their faults, but honestly, big picture, what is not to like?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Very fair. It just then comes down to my comments around sacking Poch, not being able to attract someone like ETH, and thinking that they don't have a pitch which really entices someone who would want to be competing for the biggest prizes.
I work a lot with tech companies, and there is a truism that the person who takes you from 1 to $10M in revenue is not the same as the person that takes you from 10 to $100m, from 100 to $1BN etc etc. In some cases, leaders scale and they adapt. Most of the time, as the company grows, the job changes and you need different leaders.
I think we're at the inflection point where the plan we have followed for 18 years now needs to change, and the job is different. The Poch sacking, Jose failure sequence suggests that it's still about Levy's plan as DOF, and I just don't think he is ideally suited to compete at the level he's now at. I don't think he's terrible and I think we should still be able to win some things under him, but I don't feel like we are attempting the same step change that Atletico Madrid pulled off, for example. I think in the trade off between really going for it, and being as certain as possible about the value of the club not dropping too much, they will lean to the side of protecting the value.
Put it this way, I don't think ENIC have it in their plan for us to be 'the elite'. For us to genuinely compete with United and City. I think the stadium brings us closer in, but it more solidifies our place in the top 6, and probably increases the odds of us getting 4th than when we had WHL, but I don't think their plan is for us to ever be going head to head with City for a signing, and winning. Are we ever going to be in conversation for a Sancho under ENIC? A Joao Felix? If the stadium was for us to be in the elite, I'd be all for it under them, but I think it was an increase of value and more certainty it provides were the real drivers of it.
No ESL really would have been a kick in Levy's teeth I feel, because then we really would have gotten closer to the rest of them.
That's also fair enough.
I see the Poch sacking differently, that he was burnt out and unfortunately it was time to go, but that's going off on a tangent. I think it'll be an interesting five years and we won't know if ENIC and Levy are the ones to take that next step until the end of the 5 years.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
New stadiums or major renovations is a must (at some point) for all serious clubs. We have that behind us and only costs us £17m a year.
If you think any serious business pay off capital on infrastructure projects when locked in on super low interest rates long term you are mistaken. Inflation will be along soon (well we can wait 23 years if we have to) to shrink the burden on its own.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
I think ENIC are willing to spend money as and when the income streams turn on. I think it will always be a % of income but certainly a larger % than it was during the build. Especially wages. The important bit is as income increases, and I can only see that climbing north, as so a bigger% will equal more to spend. Of course we need a decent manager to make use of the resources. I agree a DofF is needed for the search/identification, even negotiation of the suitable players for a cross club style/strategy is the best route forward. Levy sets the wage and transfer fee budget and says get on with it.
We still need to be smart though. Look at the CL semi finalists. PSG City Chelsea Real. Realistically what does it cost to be in a par with them, let alone go beyond them?
I get that many (and I include myself in this) were gutted that we got rid of Poch. He was everything. I wanted him to be our Sir Alex.
Jeff Brooks
Andy Reid
So what does success look like? An occasional 4th spot and Champions League with more regular 6th spot? Many on here seem happy about that - lets give ENIC another 5 years - they have had 20 years already!
If the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome then we are all on our way to being "driven potty" as my dear departed Dad would say.
Twenty years is more than enough - Poch had done so darn well and he said on more than one occasion that we needed to up our ambitions. It didn't happen and he lost hope and you could tell that he was on his knees with no expectation that he could do the rebuild he knew was necessary. Perhaps he hung on wanting to be fired rather than walk away because that was financially beneficial. Jose wasn't our type of Manager but he had the track record - however he needs a lot of money behind him which he has always had in the past - I cannot understand why he took the job - except he wanted to move back to London - he must have known that Levy would not change his transfer style.
Anyway there seem to be quite a few people on here who seem very happy with ENIC and I find that a bit sad...
If the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome then we are all on our way to being "driven potty" as my dear departed Dad would say.
Twenty years is more than enough - Poch had done so darn well and he said on more than one occasion that we needed to up our ambitions. It didn't happen and he lost hope and you could tell that he was on his knees with no expectation that he could do the rebuild he knew was necessary. Perhaps he hung on wanting to be fired rather than walk away because that was financially beneficial. Jose wasn't our type of Manager but he had the track record - however he needs a lot of money behind him which he has always had in the past - I cannot understand why he took the job - except he wanted to move back to London - he must have known that Levy would not change his transfer style.
Anyway there seem to be quite a few people on here who seem very happy with ENIC and I find that a bit sad...
There's a totally different set of circumstances for the first 20 years then there is for the next 5, surely you can realise that.So what does success look like? An occasional 4th spot and Champions League with more regular 6th spot? Many on here seem happy about that - lets give ENIC another 5 years - they have had 20 years already!
If the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome then we are all on our way to being "driven potty" as my dear departed Dad would say.
Twenty years is more than enough - Poch had done so darn well and he said on more than one occasion that we needed to up our ambitions. It didn't happen and he lost hope and you could tell that he was on his knees with no expectation that he could do the rebuild he knew was necessary. Perhaps he hung on wanting to be fired rather than walk away because that was financially beneficial. Jose wasn't our type of Manager but he had the track record - however he needs a lot of money behind him which he has always had in the past - I cannot understand why he took the job - except he wanted to move back to London - he must have known that Levy would not change his transfer style.
Anyway there seem to be quite a few people on here who seem very happy with ENIC and I find that a bit sad...
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
I always laugh at this.
Its like us starting with Kane Son and PEH on the bench
Hardly Tactics 101. My Chelsea mates were fuming at the selection. Luckily it didn't blow up for their manager, he'd of been wide open for criticism.
Would've been better starting with Son on the bench than at lwb
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
You are joking. Alternative events and NFL franchise is the spinner. And that's not going to cost much as the infrastructure has been built in.
No club has a team from the two most moneyed leagues in the world. That's the direction of travel.
To think that might be possible, let alone achieve it, is mind blowing for a non doped club.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
It was a bizarre one.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
Exactly