Daniel Levy - Chairman

[BrainOfLevy]

Sorry, I don't want to seem like I'm ragging on you.

For me, without any facts I can't draw conclusions, without conclusions, I can have no concerns. In time we'll find out some of what happened, we'll get some facts and can work from there.

Personally, I think it's obvious what happened too ( ), we've already given the job to Rodgers, it was done within hours of sacking Jose.

Ok, I see what you are saying. All I'm saying is, I don't think what I'm suggesting is majorly unrealistic. You're right that we don't know, but I don't see any plausible explanations otherwise for a guy perfectly happy to stick it out at Ajax for another year, other than him deciding the job wasn't quite right for him.

I think it's possible to be concerned to an extent by looking at what we think our standing should be, looking at which candidates can meet that standing, and seeing whether it looks like we are going to make it work. I wasn't in any of those meetings that may or may not have happened, but in my opinion I think it's a pretty realistic scenario that played out.

And if we do end up getting Rodgers, and were able to attract him from a club doing as well as Leicester have done, I will be happy. Whether or not I want him specifically, it will at least show we are capable of attracting someone from a club who could argue they aren't too far behind us. It would show our standing is high, that the pitch we have is a good one, that we expect to be a clear level up on Leicester. I know you were being facetious, but I'd be really happy with Rodgers, at least from that perspective.

 

[Finney Is Back]

- We need a CB badly, the last three quality CBs in the PL (VVD, Maquire, Dias) all went for over £80M (plus incentives, agent fees, etc.), we cannot fudging afford that, we may not like to accept that as fans, but we can't.

There have been lots of quality centre backs coming into the PL (many of which are certainly as good as, if not better than, Maguire) for a lot less that £80m.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Nobody cares mate, lets see

- Manage at a club that has a high profile, in the top league in world football and get paid millions a year to manage a team with a front line of Kane, Son, Bale
- Stay in some third rate league to "build my career"

Ole, Lampard, Arteta and Mason (if he was offered) are/were not ready and likely none of them will come out with career enhanced, but you don't turn it down.

If you are worried you can't make Spurs a top 4 contender, you are absolutely not the right man for the job ..

Right...I don't think he thinks Ajax is the place he is going to build his career. I think he's waiting for a better job than Spurs. I also don't think he seriously doubts his ability, I think it's much more likely he doubted Spurs' ability / desire to want to invest to establish themselves at a level beyond where they are now.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

This is fair. I am just assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that Poch was emotionally invested enough in the project that we could have said to him 'we know the rebuild needs to happen, just give us a couple of years to get through this tough period, and then we'll be set to really fire'. Surely we could have said that, promised him he was our guy, even through the tough period to come, and he would have taken it, such was his determination to make this work?

I think we did promise him that, and everyone was on the same page, the unforeseen circumstance came with the stadium delay. We were meant to be back in that second home game of the season against Liverpool...it took until April to make it home.

That unknown would spook Levy (just as Covid will), with no knowing when we'd be in, how long it would take, how long we'd still need Wembley for...I can see why that feeds into that seasons transfer windows. Poch, as he would, probably understood but found it real difficult to keep the ship moving. It burnt him out. The money came a year too late, sigh.

Circumstance was to blame.

 

[Baleforce]

We wouldn't have been part of the Super League conversation had we been in old WHL. The stadium itself elevates Spurs into 'one of the truly big clubs'. It's not just an identity thing putting Spurs on the map however, it is the financial reality of it too. Making circa £5m a match from the stadium seems like a decent return? The equivalent of one extra stellar player per year? That doesn't factor in other events and the profits from them.

Well done Levy. How can you not credit him?

There is a point about Levy always being bold and committal. I think it is a fair point. But we're in a good place and have not gambled. Would you want us to? Unlike pool and RM we're not as overextended as they are now. No doubt we have serious challenges as Levy would have expected an extra £100m or more from the stadium over the last year.

What I don't understand is how any sensible Spurs fan can't see that DL has put their team in a fantastic position. Not investing for 5 minutes where you could crash and burn, but a permanent elevation of our club. All credit to him, and shame on those who can't see the wood for the trees.

What as the stat: Tottenham didn't get into the top 6 in the decade before ENIC, and have 13 times in the following two decades.

All for a critique of Levy and identifying his weaknesses and areas to improve, but his tenure is very hard to argue against. Your arguments just don't stack up. I think people just want to winge post-Covid. Frustrations are heightened, and the end of the elevation and blip with Poch and Mourinho is frustrating. But progress is never going to be linear, there will be steps forward and backwards, but overall we are on the right trajectory. Let's hope fans don't jeopardise that.

All of this, and the trust are actively trying to hound him out of the club.

 

[Diamond Lights]

You really think we are on the same footing as Everton, Southampton and fudging West Ham who don't even own their own stadium, an athletics one at that??? I give up

Are people ignoring the point i'm making wilfully?

I'll say it again slower...

ENIC defenders like to say that "ENIC has taken us forward from when we were brick in the 90s".

My point is: Premier League money, and being an ever present in that process, like Everton, has meant that clubs who used to toil away in 15th during the 90s are no longer toiling away in 15th because financially, they're more superior due to increased television rights over the last 20 years. It has very little to do with ENIC, because TAKE A fudging LOOK AT EVERTON FOR EXAMPLE.

Bill Kenwright hardly funded the club over successive years and they're still one of the top 8 ever presents in the PL because of television money.

So to say Spurs would be brick without ENIC is gonadS. Spurs would be brick without PL TV money.

 

[mjc23]

people say ENIC have improved us from where we were in the 90s. My point is thanks to the money in the PL, most teams have seen a huge lift due to financial resources of the League itself as opposed to ENIC solely carrying us forward.

Southampton, Everton, West Ham all spent a large portion of those years in the PL and earning money that's transformed their clubs or got them new stadiums now or on the horizon.

To suggest we would still be some lowly Tottenham team toiling away in 15th is a diversionary tactic failing to look at the changes that have come across club football thanks to the Premier League.

Everton were in massive trouble under Kenright and now have some of the richest financial investors in football. West Ham rent an athletics stadium and Southampton have been pretty well run. But we consistently finish above all those teams, have a better stadium, better training ground and have reached a Champions league final. None of those teams have ever qualified for the champions league.
Everton have got Usmanov money and got a loan deal to finance their stadium.
Yes Levy has his faults but I'm pretty happy having him at the club and yes it is a business and does have to be run as such. Both Leeds and Blackburn were not run as a business and neither ended very well for them.

 

[Raziel]

This is fair. I am just assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that Poch was emotionally invested enough in the project that we could have said to him 'we know the rebuild needs to happen, just give us a couple of years to get through this tough period, and then we'll be set to really fire'. Surely we could have said that, promised him he was our guy, even through the tough period to come, and he would have taken it, such was his determination to make this work?

My concern is, what seemed to happen is that results slipped, Levy said 'results weren't where they needed to be' and banked on Jose getting a tune out of the squad that Poch couldn't. It was just a bad decision, no two ways about it. It didn't work. So while I'm appreciative of circumstance, I come back to the idea that if it was just a tough period we needed to get through before really firing, I'm pretty sure Poch would have been game. And if Levy understood what made Poch successful, he would have taken the opportunity to give him what he needed when he could, but also showed the same level of backing that he did when he joined in 2014.

It seemed like Levy genuinely lost confidence in him as the right man, and I think that was a massive error, compounded by the Jose experiment which he either also wasn't willing to see through, or just made the wrong decision again - depending on your perspective. It seemed like Levy thought the problem was Poch, and the squad was good, rather than the problem was that it had all gone stale, and we needed to refresh. He diagnosed it wrong.

I also worry that Poch was clearly annoyed in 2019, like he knew he wasn't going to get the backing for his plan. Which suggests to me ENIC didn't want to go for it. I am certain that if it really was 'we're gonna have a tough 2 years while we get into the stadium, but then we're really going for it' then Poch wouldn't have been so annoyed. He would have got it. Especially since it seemed we were lining up the likes of GLC and Bergwijn anyway. But he was annoyed, and I think in that annoyance is the same reason we don't seem to be linked with a genuinely top managerial candidate now either. I don't think ENIC are really going to go for it, regardless of circumstance.

Mate, too much speculation in there, we simply don't know

From the outside it simply seems Poch burnt himself out (helped or not by the club), everything else is best guess

Similar to @ricky2tricky4city point

 

[SpurMeUp]

If we can get back to what is wrong with Enic and Levy's method of operating - then for twenty years they have delivered one trophy - lets keep sight of that. Ten, coming up 11 Managers, and as I have said before they weren't all terrible.
We make statements on here about what has gone wrong with various transfers and that's from hearsay and speculation BUT I do not think I am wrong in saying that Levy's transfer method is to bid low and then take weeks to inch up towards a valuation that the selling club will accept and on outgoings he uses the same method - quote high and come down very slowly. All this means is that important transfers targets are lost and the team's needs are not paramount - if we need to sell to buy then sell quick - take a haircut on the fee to get them off the payroll and then you have funds to commit to incomings.
The essence of this is that I think Levy is a Space Cadet - absolutely disputing the reality of transfer and wages methods. So with our wage bill as a percentage of revenue, 6th/7th is about right for us. BUT I read that this was pointed out to him at some THST meeting and he simply said that he wasn't convinced there is a correlation in that.
I keep reading that Levy will learn lessons BUT I am not convinced he will - twenty years remember and we still hope he will learn lessons. He is a paradox - do what is right for the club in terms of finance/profitability and shareholder value and do what is wrong for the TEAM in terms of success and trophies.
If Harry says he wants to go because he doesn't believe that he will win trophies here then that should be a real turning point in how Levy is viewed.
Twenty years people - we are better than this performance by Enic...

For the decade before Levy we weren't 'better than this performance by Enic'..

Although Levy does have that negotiation playbook, he does have others too, and is quite capable of being decisive and swift. But while you casually talk about an extra couple of million, of course Levy has to be prudent! Who wouldn't be? I'll tell you who, Peter Risdale, and take a look at what happened to Leeds. That will never happen to Spurs under Levy. If you save 2m a transfer by negotiating you get an extra player after 5 transfers. Maybe that is why we've outperformed other midtable sides who we were similar to us 20 years ago. What would you put our improved average league position down to?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Until he spends £200m in transfer window he will always be useless to many. It doesnt matter who he appoints as manager as we've seen on here no one can agree on who should get and the majority will probably lose out and be ready to start an other couple of years of moaning about his candidate.

 

[Raziel]

Are people ignoring the point i'm making wilfully?

I'll say it again slower...

ENIC defenders like to say that "ENIC has taken us forward from when we were brick in the 90s".

My point is: Premier League money, and being an ever present in that process, like Everton, has meant that clubs who used to toil away in 15th during the 90s are no longer toiling away in 15th because financially, they're more superior due to increased television rights over the last 20 years. It has very little to do with ENIC, because TAKE A fudging LOOK AT EVERTON FOR EXAMPLE.

Bill Kenwright hardly funded the club over successive years and they're still one of the top 8 ever presents in the PL because of television money.

So to say Spurs would be brick without ENIC is gonad*S. Spurs would be brick without PL TV money.

Mate, Everton (as were Saudi Sportswashing Machine) were ahead of us 15 years ago, they were the first best of the rest team (outside of Sky 4)

They have nothing but a piece of paper that says they will build a stadium, they have been in Europe how many times in the last 15 years? (we have been in 12 years strait)

With an owner pumping money into them artificially (not PL money), they still suck and are below us on our worst season, and their income is less than half of Spurs (which again says your point re PL money only is flimflam)

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Jose has taken us to this position, without covid (and that affects every club) we'd be fine and dandy giving budgets and support to a new man. This is what post completion of the stadium was meant to look like sans covid?
Bad footballing decision? Appointing Jose? Probably (and I wouldn't of) but if we were looking to be winners and Jose claimed he'd reformed himself over 11 months I can see the logic of the match-up.

There was definitely some logic there for sure. But the buck stops with Levy. He made the wrong decision. On top of another bad decision. Hence why I don't trust him on the football side and I'd rather someone else in his seat for the next phase of our journey.

I understand every single positive argument for Levy and ENIC. I argued them positively myself for years. All I am saying is that for most of their time owning the club, particularly after the Pleat caretaker season where it seemed Levy flew around the world and immersed himself in conversation with everyone in the game he possibly could, we've been on an upward curve. I understood the plan. I was happy to go with the gut punches, the sackings, the losing out on deadline day signings, the wage structure. All of it. I totally got it. I thought their plan was going to get us to where we needed to go. And it was working.

But I think we've reached a point where the next step, the new furniture that Poch was talking about, building a club that genuinely competes for the biggest prizes, I just don't trust that they know what to do to get us there. I don't think they get why a team or a squad will be successful. And I don't think the level of investment required is ideal for them given their financial plans and desired ROI. We may well get there with them, but I think we will get there more slowly than with someone else. I am not saying they are terrible, I am just saying I think this next step is not one they are best equipped to lead us on, if we really want to take it. Even if the purse strings are loosened in terms of transfer budget (which I can accept has happened to an extent), I don't trust Levy in this defacto DOF position. At a minimum, I'd like him removed and for someone else who knows more about football and squad building at this level to be responsible for it.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I have friends who are united fans, their take is that it's now a brickhole that can only be fixed with a bulldozer.

My original question was in response to the intimation that a club could build a new stadium (on land they already have) just by selling the naming rights and getting a bit of a mortgage in advance, no need for a load of cash up front, and certainly no need to take money away from the club's transfer budget. My question was, in that case, why wouldn't clubs such as United and Liverpool, take the "free" stadium upgrade to make more money in future?

Because as we've seen with ours it isn't free at all..... Funding the £1.2 billion it has cost us to build our stadium would require £66 million a year to pay off capital and interest (at very low rates). Neither Man Utd or Liverpool would make an extra £66 million a season from a new stadium. They already have large grounds and large corporate numbers that are right at the top of the corporate rates for that part of the country. New stadium's for Man Utd or Liverpool would be mainly vanity exercises now that would struggle to pay for themselves.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Basically, the criticism of Levy boils down to him looking for value in transfers. But you have to admit that approach helped us to progress from a club that didn't get European football. It allowed us to punch above our weight.

I think it is unfair (and inattentive) to say we have not progressed from that value model. Over the past few years Levy has splurged on top players. We are evolving. That is not to say he can't look for value still. Rondon say - if we like the cut of his jib and think he has the tools to become a commanding CB, why wouldn't we invest?

In short, we will always look for value in the transfer market with Levy in charge. That is no bad thing. But there is an evolution where we are also prepared to pay top dollar to secure the best players. And that should continue with the increased revenue from the stadium. Rather than undermine the work of a successful chairman, why not pull together and support his endeavors?

 

[Raziel]

Basically, the criticism of Levy boils down to him looking for value in transfers. But you have to admit that approach helped us to progress from a club that didn't get European football. It allowed us to punch above our weight.

I think it is unfair (and inattentive) to say we have not progressed from that model of looking for value to help us develop. Over the past few years Levy has splurged on top players. We are evolving. That is not to say he can't look for value still. Rondon say - if we like the cut of his jib and think he has the tools to become a commanding CB, why wouldn't we invest?

In short, we will always look for value in the transfer market with Levy in charge. That is no bad thing. But there is an evolution where we are also prepared to pay top dollar to secure the best players. And that should continue with the increased revenue from the stadium. Rather than undermine the work of a successful chairman, why not pull together and support his endeavors?

It's more we didn't overpay for x player that was a success (Dias, Fernandes, etc.) while conveniently ignoring the bullets dodged and the successes (Walker, Bale, Rose, Carrick, Berbatov, VDV, Modric, Dele, Eriksen, Lloris, Son, Jan, Toby are all crazy good buys)

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think we did promise him that, and everyone was on the same page, the unforeseen circumstance came with the stadium delay. We were meant to be back in that second home game of the season against Liverpool...it took until April to make it home.

That unknown would spook Levy (just as Covid will), with no knowing when we'd be in, how long it would take, how long we'd still need Wembley for...I can see why that feeds into that seasons transfer windows. Poch, as he would, probably understood but found it real difficult to keep the ship moving. It burnt him out. The money came a year too late, sigh.

Circumstance was to blame.

If that's how it went down, I can certainly sympathise with Levy. Problem is, Poch was using the media to apply pressure to Levy. If Levy had been straight with him, and said the money was coming, we'll do it all, just give us time, I don't think Poch needs to go to the media. I think he was doing this in 2019 when we were already in.

I really think their visions diverged, and Levy lost confidence that Poch was the right man to get results. Because if the financial situation had clearly been explained to him, I think he would have got it, and wouldn't have felt the need to apply public pressure.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We were up against a team who had a squad that enabled them bring on Hazard, Costa and Fabregas as substitutes.

No
They started with a weaker line up
And then brought them in
That team lost to palace earlier that month
We however started son at left wing back who
Gave them a penalty

 

[Baleforce]

Because as we've seen with ours it isn't free at all..... Funding the £1.2 billion it has cost us to build our stadium would require £66 million a year to pay off capital and interest (at very low rates). Neither Man Utd or Liverpool would make an extra £66 million a season from a new stadium. They already have large grounds and large corporate numbers that are right at the top of the corporate rates for that part of the country. New stadium's for Man Utd or Liverpool would be mainly vanity exercises now that would struggle to pay for themselves.

so they couldn’t fund it with Debt, naming rights, future sold corporate packages, debentures, etc?

sorry, I thought you were arguing our new stadium could have funded itself with such measures?

I think United certainly could double their capacity and corporate and still sell out every game.

 

[Baleforce]

It's more we didn't overpay for x player that was a success (Dias, Fernandes, etc.) while conveniently ignoring the bullets dodged and the successes (Walker, Bale, Rose, Carrick, Berbatov, VDV, Modric, Dele, Eriksen, Lloris, Son, Jan, Toby are all crazy good buys)

remember people losing their brick when we didn’t sign Michael Ricketts

 

[SpurMeUp]

Are people ignoring the point i'm making wilfully?

I'll say it again slower...

ENIC defenders like to say that "ENIC has taken us forward from when we were brick in the 90s".

My point is: Premier League money, and being an ever present in that process, like Everton, has meant that clubs who used to toil away in 15th during the 90s are no longer toiling away in 15th because financially, they're more superior due to increased television rights over the last 20 years. It has very little to do with ENIC, because TAKE A fudging LOOK AT EVERTON FOR EXAMPLE.

Bill Kenwright hardly funded the club over successive years and they're still one of the top 8 ever presents in the PL because of television money.

So to say Spurs would be brick without ENIC is gonad*S. Spurs would be brick without PL TV money.

You argument has one fundamental flaw: every PL club has had an increase in TV revenue. So the increases are negated. We are in the same position we were when Levy took over competitively speaking. No one is willfully ignoring you don't worry!