Champions League thread 2013/14

[Jurgen the German]

i totally agree. i don't see why people think this ruins the game at all if im honest.
i suspect the attitude that this kind of decision "ruins the game" is a predominantly British one. as a culture, we like to see hard tackles and challenges and therefore do not like it when these kind of tackle attempts get punished. it wouldn't surprise me at all if other countries do not see this kind of punishment as having "ruined the game".

The answer is don't make stupid tackles, quite a simple concept. If you change it to a yellow you're basically saying "just hack the ****er down you won't get sent off and he might miss the penalty anyway."

 

[chicken_badge]

It rarely feels proportionate though. Robben would have scored, so that should have been 1-0 to Bayern, and chesney warranted some sort of sanction for a dangerous and unsporting tackle, fair enough. But I don't think that equates with stacking the odds so heavily against Arsenal. The real problem though is when the ref gets judgement wrong, like with Danny Rose. We were getting outplayed in that game but actually had taken the game to City and we have won other such games (Liverpool in the early days of Redknapp, for example). But Rose off, and that was game over for us.

I also think the whole "professional foul" thing has lost its focus from when the rule was brought in. The aim was to stop clear and cynical challenges, like Kevin Moran in the 1985 cup final. I'd go as far as saying that if there is no clear attempt to cynically bring a player down, they shouldnt be shown a red. In other words, if a ref feels a player made a genuine and fair attempt to win the ball then its not a red.

I think when a penalty is awarded it restores the "clear goalscoring opportunity". What's wrong with even insisting the goalkeeper starts on the edge of the penalty area when he is the one bringing the forward down (like chesney tonigh), leaving the attacker with an open goal?

 

[Jurgen the German]

If you took away the red card you'd have to award a goal not just a penalty, otherwise there's nothing to discourage the defender from fouling. A player could wipe out the opposition player and not just stop him from scoring but also injure him for a number of weeks whilst the player who committed the foul gets away with a yellow card and will be laughing. If you want football to be more entertaining then encouraging defenders to take caution when tackling as the last man is paramount - you'd have no end of 0-0 draws if no one had the threat of being sent off as they'd just plough through the other team's playermaker

 

[Daisuk]

A clear foul by Stehncshnhjsny, clear penalty, he denies him a clear cut chance, red card was fair. I'm not losing any sleep over it. :ross:

 

[chicken_badge]

If you took away the red card you'd have to award a goal not just a penalty, otherwise there's nothing to discourage the defender from fouling. A player could wipe out the opposition player and not just stop him from scoring but also injure him for a number of weeks whilst the player who committed the foul gets away with a yellow card and will be laughing. If you want football to be more entertaining then encouraging defenders to take caution when tackling as the last man is paramount - you'd have no end of 0-0 draws if no one had the threat of being sent off as they'd just plough through the other team's playermaker

The injury argument is a bit of an exaggeration though, isn't it? Think of how many tackles DON'T result in injury. Plus the ref can always send the player off if they see the tackle as dangerous.

And I don't think football was particularly boring or negative before the 1994 USA World Cup sorry I meant the 1991 rule change. It was hardly 0-0 every week, was it?

 

[Neymar]

-

 

[Neymar]

I think when a penalty is awarded it restores the "clear goalscoring opportunity". What's wrong with even insisting the goalkeeper starts on the edge of the penalty area when he is the one bringing the forward down (like chesney tonigh), leaving the attacker with an open goal?

I think something like this would be too problematic to enforce. It relies too much on judgement. And usually this leads to feelings of being cheated.

re your point of "professional fouls/Moran", again too much is left to the judgement of the referee. And in addition, i can see players trying to abuse this rule change to the full.

I think hard and fast rules work best in reality. That's why i'm not against the current rules on this matter. We need to minimise the involvement of human judgment as much as possible so that the fans and players know the rules and what is expected of them. That's why i don't sympathise with Szcsney/Arsenal whatsoever in this case. He knew what would happen if he got that tackle attempt wrong. He gambled, and lost.

It rarely feels proportionate though. Robben would have scored, so that should have been 1-0 to Bayern, and chesney warranted some sort of sanction for a dangerous and unsporting tackle, fair enough. But I don't think that equates with stacking the odds so heavily against Arsenal. The real problem though is when the ref gets judgement wrong, like with Danny Rose. We were getting outplayed in that game but actually had taken the game to City and we have won other such games (Liverpool in the early days of Redknapp, for example). But Rose off, and that was game over for us.

Sczsney knew what the repercussions would be if he got it wrong. If he didn't like that potential outcome, he should've reacted differently. Re Danny Rose, i think that's the kind of reason why video replay in football is an inevitability.

 

[Jurgen the German]

The injury argument is a bit of an exaggeration though, isn't it? Think of how many tackles DON'T result in injury. Plus the ref can always send the player off if they see the tackle as dangerous.

And I don't think football was particularly boring or negative before the 1994 USA World Cup sorry I meant the 1991 rule change. It was hardly 0-0 every week, was it?

I just think it's sending out a bad message to reduce it to a yellow card as there is nothing to discourage the opponent from wiping out the other player. Ok you may argue football wasn't negative before the rule change but I believe the rule was brought in for the benefit of the game and it has benefitted the game in my eyes. Don't all red cards ruin football matches to a certain extent? That shouldn't stop the referee from doing his job and sending the man off if it warrants it. The red card in last night effectively killed the game but it was still a foul and stopped a near certain goal.

At the very least, the rule gives the player an opportunity to think about going for the ball rather than just deciding I can bury him, get away with a booking and I've stopped a goal from going in.

 

[Jordinho]

Ozil completed 15 of 28 passes last night. They finally decide to spend big and they've ****ed it away.

 

[indianspur]

Ever since we beat them at the Lane Arsenal have been solid defensively. I really do hope we can just settle on a settled defensive unit.

but still in a negative spiral

 

[Rorschach]

How good was Kroos in that game. I know they had a man advantage for most of the game but he's such an elegant player. He must have hit 20 pinpoint crossfield passes to Robben in the 2nd half.

 

[clownfoot]

To be able to leave Muller on the bench and not really notice him missing speaks volumes of how strong that team is.

Next season me and a few friends are going to try and get some European football weekends organised. Definitely going to Barcelona, mainly to see Messi in his prime, but I definitely want to go to Munich too.

 

[SteveAWOL]

but still in a negative spiral http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/o...w-you-have-15-million-reasons-to-be-happy.jpg

#-o

How good was Kroos in that game. I know they had a man advantage for most of the game but he's such an elegant player. He must have hit 20 pinpoint crossfield passes to Robben in the 2nd half.

=D>

@Squawka: Toni Kroos completed 21 long passes last night. The entire Arsenal side managed 14. Perfect midfield performance.

@OptaJoe: 147 - Toni Kroos completed the same number of passes as the 12 Arsenal outfield players combined tonight (147). Master.

@WhoScored: Toni Kroos: Completed more than twice as many passes in the final third (81) last night as Arsenal managed as a whole (39)

@Squawka: Toni Kroos completed 144/149 (97%) passes last night, more than any player in a Champions League match this season.

 

[diego_maradona]

#-o

=D>

@Squawka: Toni Kroos completed 21 long passes last night. The entire Arsenal side managed 14. Perfect midfield performance.

@OptaJoe: 147 - Toni Kroos completed the same number of passes as the 12 Arsenal outfield players combined tonight (147). Master.

@WhoScored: Toni Kroos: Completed more than twice as many passes in the final third (81) last night as Arsenal managed as a whole (39)

@Squawka: Toni Kroos completed 144/149 (97%) passes last night, more than any player in a Champions League match this season.

and yet Pep Guardiola wasn't even playing him recently.

 

[Neymar]

whenever ive seen kroos (including yesterday), ive never felt he was that good tbh. he seems like the german frank lampard from the games ive seen of him. ive been more impressed with the likes of goetze and reus.

 

[markysimmo]

Amused me on the train today listening to 2 Arsenal fans, saying how they would win 3-0 in Munich and how they were by far the better team lastnight and Bayern were lucky

Now I know im biased towards Spurs, but jeez what they were saying was simply ludicrous...

 

[Jurgen the German]

whenever ive seen kroos (including yesterday), ive never felt he was that good tbh. he seems like the german frank lampard from the games ive seen of him. ive been more impressed with the likes of goetze and reus.

I would take Reus over all of them.

Also think Götze will eventually be better than Ozil, in fact he may be already.

 

[Rorschach]

whenever ive seen kroos (including yesterday), ive never felt he was that good tbh. he seems like the german frank lampard from the games ive seen of him. ive been more impressed with the likes of goetze and reus.

I don't think he's remotely like Lampard in his playing style actually. I've seen games which he wasn't all that, but last night was a masterclass from both him and Lahm in the middle of the pitch. Goetze didn't play that great last night actually. Not awful but just not brilliant IMO.

 

[Neymar]

I don't think he's remotely like Lampard in his playing style actually. I've seen games which he wasn't all that, but last night was a masterclass from both him and Lahm in the middle of the pitch. Goetze didn't play that great last night actually. Not awful but just not brilliant IMO.

You are probably right to be honest. But in the small number of games that ive seen, Kroos doesn't seem to be that athletic, nor does he seem to be on the technical level of the likes of Reus/Goetze/Ozil. Hence, the reason for him playing in a deeper midfield position. But he does seem to strike the ball somewhat well (and seems to have a knack for scoring). And hence i made a very generalistic statement that he seems to be the german lampard.

I really need to re-iterate the fact that i have only seen him a handful of times. and therefore my judgment of him isnt likely to be very good.

 

[Rorschach]

You are probably right to be honest. But in the small number of games that ive seen, Kroos doesn't seem to be that athletic, nor does he seem to be on the technical level of the likes of Reus/Goetze/Ozil. Hence, the reason for him playing in a deeper midfield position. But he does seem to strike the ball somewhat well (and seems to have a knack for scoring). And hence i made a very generalistic statement that he seems to be the german lampard.

I really need to re-iterate the fact that i have only seen him a handful of times. and therefore my judgment of him isnt likely to be very good.

Techincally he is excellent IMO, especially with his passing. Guardiola has tagged him for the 'Xavi' role in his current setup I think. To be fair though he is young an still learning his game. Maybe this coach suits him.