World Cup Group A - Brazil, Cameroon, Croatia, Mexico

[braineclipse]

More BS from you again about African football teams in the World Cup. I repeat WORLD CUP.

I bet you were saying similar about 'too many Asian teams' when South Korea were going to world cups constantly and getting whacked...look what you're saying about Asian teams now....:-"

You seem very touchy about this so I realize I'm walking on eggshells here, but...

You can change the number of teams from each continent and still have a WORLD CUP.

I agree that the World Cup shouldn't be just the 32 best teams, and that including teams from a continent as a way to help those teams improve seems fair enough. I think the problem with African teams should be looked at very carefully by FIFA though. It was in 1977 that Pele predicted that an African team would win the World Cup by the year 2000. The first World Cup I remember was Italy '90 and Cameroon played a big part in that tournament, since then other teams have joined in, but the predicted progression just hasn't been there in the same way I think it can be argued that it's been in Asia.

I agree that Mumorn's comment is premature, but if African teams continually disappoint and fail to reach their potential it will become a valid question I think. The question then becomes, do you think African teams will change this the way things are currently heading?

 

[DHSF]

More BS from you again about African football teams in the World Cup. I repeat WORLD CUP.

I bet you were saying similar about 'too many Asian teams' when South Korea were going to world cups constantly and getting whacked...look what you're saying about Asian teams now....:-"

Dont bother responding to unconstructive comments seriously.

I agree with you (for once haha) - The only way for African teams (and other continents) is to give them the opportunities to develop. The world cup is one such tournament to do so. Its a progressive curve of development and they will only improve as time goes on. I mean look at Australia, whilst they are out they gave a good account of themselves against the Dutch and one half against Chile (who just beat the world champions)

 

[Baleforce]

is there any kind of coefficient standings for federation places at the world cup or is it fixed?

 

[Jordinho]

is there any kind of coefficient standings for federation places at the world cup or is it fixed?

It is fixed unfortunately. Blatter and friends decide, otherwise Africa would have lost a spot after the last WC. Not including the one South Africa had as hosts.

South America have so many quality teams right now and deserve another. We don't need both Honduras and Costa Rica in the WC finals.

IMO Europe should get a shot at those playoffs against Oceania and CONCACAF.

 

[glorygloryeze]

The irony that both of these players were on the pitch last night....

 

[glorygloryeze]

You seem very touchy about this so I realize I'm walking on eggshells here, but...

You can change the number of teams from each continent and still have a WORLD CUP.

I agree that the World Cup shouldn't be just the 32 best teams, and that including teams from a continent as a way to help those teams improve seems fair enough. I think the problem with African teams should be looked at very carefully by FIFA though. It was in 1977 that Pele predicted that an African team would win the World Cup by the year 2000. The first World Cup I remember was Italy '90 and Cameroon played a big part in that tournament, since then other teams have joined in, but the predicted progression just hasn't been there in the same way I think it can be argued that it's been in Asia.

I agree that Mumorn's comment is premature, but if African teams continually disappoint and fail to reach their potential it will become a valid question I think. The question then becomes, do you think African teams will change this the way things are currently heading?

Since 1986 (as far back as my memory goes) Africa has always had a side qualify for the second round/last 16, up to the last world cup:
1986: Morocco (went out last 16)
1990: Cameroon (went out in quater final)
1994: Nigeria (went out last 16)
1998: Nigeria (went out last 16)
2002: Senegal (went out in quarter final; their one and only world cup)
2006: Ghana (went out last 16)
2010: Ghana (went out in quarter final)

Let's compare Asian teams since 1986:
1986: no-one made it to second round
1990: no-one made it to second round
1994: Saudi Arabia made it to second round
1998: no-one made it to second round
2002: the two host naations progressed: one to round 16 the other to semi-finals (via dubious refereeing btw...) I note this is further than any african side...
2006: no-one made it to second round
2010: South Korea and Japan made it to second round, narrowly going out..again i recognise that having two teams qualify for the second round has never happened for Africa's federation; plus the irony that Asia's achievement happened when the tournamenet was IN Africa..although again the remanining African side (Ghana) went further than BOTH..

So when you compare things, it's debatable that any progression in Asia has not been clear cut; many of those WCs NO Asia side made it to the second round, whilst Africa has been VERY consistent in that regard. Actually perhaps the perception of progression is easy seeing as there have been many world cups where NO Asian side makes the second round. All things can change quickly of course (look at Spain), but to say African teams have dissapointed more than Asian sides is not backed up with the above results. It'll be interesting to see what happens this year as Asian and africa are going head-to-head in terms of world cup standing imo now.

In terms of me being techy? Not really, I recognise the disappointments (I am myself disaapointed big time with recent Nigeria tournament performances) but I think Mumorn showed his lack of context when he clamied that Ivory Coast had disaapointed in the previous two World Cups (which btw were the only two that had participated in before this year...).
If you look at the groups the had in both years, one would have to say it would almost have been a miracle if they had progressed to the round of 16:

2006 - They were in the same group as Argentina, Netherlands and Serbia. That was rightly referred to as the Group of Death at the time.
2010 - They were in the same group as Brazil, Portugal and North Korea.

Would England or France for example have likely made it out of those two groups? If so, at who's expense??
In fact Ivory Coast improved their points tally and so it could be argued they're progressing as they get used to the tournament (this has been only their third one).
Looking at the tough groups Ivory Coast had, using them as an example of how poorly African sides do in the world cup is quite frankly a joke.


It would be interesting to see what happens to this perception of 'progress' if
A) No Asian teams make it to the second round whilst at least one African side does
B) No Asian side makes it to second round and TWO Africa sides do
C) Both contnents have one representative in the second round but the African side goes further
D) Asia have TWO representative in the second round, whilst Africa has only one but that side goes furtther
E) NO sodes from EITHER continent make it to the second round!

Since 1986, THREE different African sides have made it to World Cup quarter finals; that's as many as England....i can that progress...or certainly NOT going backwards at least...

I would be interested if anyone can list previous world cup group stages where an African side didn't make it out the group AND for that African side it was a major underachievement.
If that can be done, i'd be very surprised if there are more than one in each World Cup...
There is a longer discussion to be had about seedings and how FIFA calculate them and how corrupt that process is, but that can wait for another day!

 

[Hidden]

 

[Jordinho]

Brazil will qualify for the last 16 with a win or a draw against Cameroon.

Mexico need a win or a draw against Croatia to reach the last 16.

They need to better Brazil's result against Cameroon to win the group or, if both teams win, win by a bigger margin than Brazil to overtake them on goal difference. In the last scenario they need to score at least two goals more than Brazil manage.

If Mexico win their game by a 1 goal bigger margin than Brazil and score exactly two goals more than them, ie. Brazil win 1-0 and Mexico 3-1, they will be tied for 1st place with both teams having the same goal difference and the same amount of goals scored.

A draw could be enough to take Croatia through, but only if Brazil lose to Cameroon. A win would definitely see them through. They can top the group if they win and Brazil fail to beat Cameroon.

 

[Baleforce]

I've been looking at that table all week, something in my head is telling me to bet on Croatia and Mexico to go through

 

[braineclipse]

Since 1986 (as far back as my memory goes) Africa has always had a side qualify for the second round/last 16, up to the last world cup:
1986: Morocco (went out last 16)
1990: Cameroon (went out in quater final)
1994: Nigeria (went out last 16)
1998: Nigeria (went out last 16)
2002: Senegal (went out in quarter final; their one and only world cup)
2006: Ghana (went out last 16)
2010: Ghana (went out in quarter final)

Let's compare Asian teams since 1986:
1986: no-one made it to second round
1990: no-one made it to second round
1994: Saudi Arabia made it to second round
1998: no-one made it to second round
2002: the two host naations progressed: one to round 16 the other to semi-finals (via dubious refereeing btw...) I note this is further than any african side...
2006: no-one made it to second round
2010: South Korea and Japan made it to second round, narrowly going out..again i recognise that having two teams qualify for the second round has never happened for Africa's federation; plus the irony that Asia's achievement happened when the tournamenet was IN Africa..although again the remanining African side (Ghana) went further than BOTH..

So when you compare things, it's debatable that any progression in Asia has not been clear cut; many of those WCs NO Asia side made it to the second round, whilst Africa has been VERY consistent in that regard. Actually perhaps the perception of progression is easy seeing as there have been many world cups where NO Asian side makes the second round. All things can change quickly of course (look at Spain), but to say African teams have dissapointed more than Asian sides is not backed up with the above results. It'll be interesting to see what happens this year as Asian and africa are going head-to-head in terms of world cup standing imo now.

In terms of me being techy? Not really, I recognise the disappointments (I am myself disaapointed big time with recent Nigeria tournament performances) but I think Mumorn showed his lack of context when he clamied that Ivory Coast had disaapointed in the previous two World Cups (which btw were the only two that had participated in before this year...).
If you look at the groups the had in both years, one would have to say it would almost have been a miracle if they had progressed to the round of 16:

2006 - They were in the same group as Argentina, Netherlands and Serbia. That was rightly referred to as the Group of Death at the time.
2010 - They were in the same group as Brazil, Portugal and North Korea.

Would England or France for example have likely made it out of those two groups? If so, at who's expense??
In fact Ivory Coast improved their points tally and so it could be argued they're progressing as they get used to the tournament (this has been only their third one).
Looking at the tough groups Ivory Coast had, using them as an example of how poorly African sides do in the world cup is quite frankly a joke.


It would be interesting to see what happens to this perception of 'progress' if
A) No Asian teams make it to the second round whilst at least one African side does
B) No Asian side makes it to second round and TWO Africa sides do
C) Both contnents have one representative in the second round but the African side goes further
D) Asia have TWO representative in the second round, whilst Africa has only one but that side goes furtther
E) NO sodes from EITHER continent make it to the second round!

Since 1986, THREE different African sides have made it to World Cup quarter finals; that's as many as England....i can that progress...or certainly NOT going backwards at least...

I would be interested if anyone can list previous world cup group stages where an African side didn't make it out the group AND for that African side it was a major underachievement.
If that can be done, i'd be very surprised if there are more than one in each World Cup...
There is a longer discussion to be had about seedings and how FIFA calculate them and how corrupt that process is, but that can wait for another day!

I find your attempt at a direct comparison with Asian teams a bit strange. Like I said in the post you quoted, It was in 1977 that Pele predicted that an African team would win the World Cup by the year 2000. Has similar predictions been made about Asian teams?

I think the progress particularly seen with Japan and South Korea has been rather impressive, neither has had a great World Cup so far this time around, but I'm not really talking about one or two games. I think football is too coincidental to change my perception of progress based on results from one tournament. They're not at the level that was expected from African teams a couple of decades back, but their starting point was different too.

 

[Roy1983]

I've been looking at that table all week, something in my head is telling me to bet on Croatia and Mexico to go through

Give me your money if your throwing it away like that!!!!

 

[glorygloryeze]

I find your attempt at a direct comparison with Asian teams a bit strange. Like I said in the post you quoted, It was in 1977 that Pele predicted that an African team would win the World Cup by the year 2000. Has similar predictions been made about Asian teams?

I think the progress particularly seen with Japan and South Korea has been rather impressive, neither has had a great World Cup so far this time around, but I'm not really talking about one or two games. I think football is too coincidental to change my perception of progress based on results from one tournament. They're not at the level that was expected from African teams a couple of decades back, but their starting point was different too.

I think it's a bit pointless basing judgements on a federations football teams on the random predictions/views of one person who happened to be a great GREAT ex-player.

If Pele says he thinks England or Argentina will never win a world cup agaian, will that have equal resonance? If England do, will it be a greater achieevment just because one man said they couldn't/wouldn't?

Like i said, in response to the idea that the Asian confederation has 'progressed' further than the African sides I was trying to show that there is not much between the 'progress' of African and Asian teams and that there is as much 'evidence' to show that African teams have outperformed Asian teams as there is to show the opposite.

As i previously said, the best way to show whether African teams have generally underachieved or not is to actually list the teams and times when it has happened giving full context etc. No doubt it would be easy to do with, say England or italy, for example, so if it is indeed true then that should be very easy to do in terms of African teams.

If people cannot show this, then the whole 'African sides have not progressed' argument is spurious

 

[Baleforce]

Give me your money if your throwing it away like that!!!!

50/1 on brazil going out in the group stage when i last looked, what odds you got?

 

[Yossarian]

50/1 on brazil going out in the group stage when i last looked, what odds you got?

Brazil have to lose tonight to go out? To Cameroon? 50/1 seems huge, but it's that price for a reason.

 

[Baleforce]

i know its mad, but croatia and mexico to draw, fred missing a load of sitters and cameroon nicking it with a soft header late on, its not beyond the realms of possibility

 

[Seedy Ron]

Italy winning their last 2 games wasn't beyond the realms of possibility... :terry:

Brazil are poor but they're not Cameroon poor.

 

[Roy1983]

50/1 on brazil going out in the group stage when i last looked, what odds you got?

Lol lump on it then!!

 

[Baleforce]

not lumping, it's a punt, worth a quid tough

 

[Roy1983]

It's value ill give you that. You never know I suppose.

 

[Yiddo]

What channel is the Brazil game on?