Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[harr1984]

In the grand scheme I think consistency of league performance says more than a run in a cup. I think the win a cup any cup cadre are probably trying to shake off the easy banter but also possibly believe a cup win adds something to the mental of the players and the squad.

I'm not sure if I agree completely, I think it's a bit more dependent on the cup itself. Winning the EL is something else entirely to me than winning the CC and not because of the potential reward but the challenge, the adversity required and the quality of the opposition faced and obviously the prestige of winning a major competition in Europe.

I do agree to your overall point, and winning a Europa League trophy would be immense with t some really good teams in there and the prestige it brings.

But, there are challenges in the League cup too - you have to beat at least one, sometimes two of the big boys in the latter stages of that competition and in the semis/final they play a much more full strength team than in the earlier rounds. For me winning that would still be an accomplishment, I remember being at the Chelsea final we won and that was quite a battle and really felt like a hard earned cup win and it meant something so if we were to do that again I will not be downplaying it....

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

think the win a cup any cup cadre are probably trying to shake off the easy banter but also possibly believe a cup win adds something to the mental of the players and the squad.

I think you'll find it's more to do with their own mental health

 

[Bedfordspurs]

In the grand scheme I think consistency of league performance says more than a run in a cup. I think the win a cup any cup cadre are probably trying to shake off the easy banter but also possibly believe a cup win adds something to the mental of the players and the squad.

I'm not sure if I agree completely, I think it's a bit more dependent on the cup itself. Winning the EL is something else entirely to me than winning the CC and not because of the potential reward but the challenge, the adversity required and the quality of the opposition faced and obviously the prestige of winning a major competition in Europe.

Very much agree
But do believe in cup football you can get by with elements of luck you won’t get in the league as generally evens out
The way the European comps are now structured it’s full of lifelines for any decent side to remain in it as long as possible
That’s so different to the prem where you don’t get a second chance

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I do agree to your overall point, and winning a Europa League trophy would be immense with t some really good teams in there and the prestige it brings.

But, there are challenges in the League cup too - you have to beat at least one, sometimes two of the big boys in the latter stages of that competition and in the semis/final they play a much more full strength team than in the earlier rounds. For me winning that would still be an accomplishment, I remember being at the Chelsea final we won and that was quite a battle and really felt like a hard earned cup win and it meant something so if we were to do that again I will not be downplaying it....

I've been thinking about the EL.
If you strip it down, I don't think the teams in it this year are that strong. Plus there is the bonus that no CL heavyweights can drop in. I know United have a new manager and are a big club but you'd rather them than eg Chelsea or Villa, United are still a mess.

Cups can be a lottery BUT at least this is two legged all the way to the final, so an iffy leg can still be recovered.

Finally though, we all bemoan the financial imbalance and disadvantage we face in the PL when in this tournament that's flipped on its head, we are the moneyed club, the big spenders.

 

[Bishop]

I do agree to your overall point, and winning a Europa League trophy would be immense with t some really good teams in there and the prestige it brings.

But, there are challenges in the League cup too - you have to beat at least one, sometimes two of the big boys in the latter stages of that competition and in the semis/final they play a much more full strength team than in the earlier rounds. For me winning that would still be an accomplishment, I remember being at the Chelsea final we won and that was quite a battle and really felt like a hard earned cup win and it meant something so if we were to do that again I will not be downplaying it....

I deffo wouldn't downplay it and we are hardly in the position to poopoo any actual competition wins. I'm just not sure i'd take the CC, finish 8th and be happy with what we got this season.

 

[billyiddo]

This topic was covered in a recent The Game is About Glory podcast - I think they mostly got it spot on, worth a listen if you haven't already

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I've been thinking about the EL.
If you strip it down, I don't think the teams in it this year are that strong. Plus there is the bonus that no CL heavyweights can drop in. I know United have a new manager and are a big club but you'd rather them than eg Chelsea or Villa, United are still a mess.

Cups can be a lottery BUT at least this is two legged all the way to the final, so an iffy leg can still be recovered.

Finally though, we all bemoan the financial imbalance and disadvantage we face in the PL when in this tournament that's flipped on its head, we are the moneyed club, the big spenders.

The teams arent very strong
You can look at the league position of most of the teams and see that

It’s why we’re favourites although Bilbao knowing The final is at their ground will want to be there

 

[Mikey10]

A more balanced article than the headline might suggest.

Tottenham Hotspur: How do Spurs solve their chronic inconsistency?

Anna Howells, content creator for Spurs XY and long-suffering Tottenham fan, bristles at the term “sexy” being used about her team – but admits it is an apt description.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bullet]

We've had the cups discussion many times.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, Angelos Postecoglou, why on earth is he running certain players into the ground?

They are running on empty after 5 minutes, nearly dead after 60, walking around in a daze, and he refuses to sub them.

Spence is a very capable player with decent experience, give him a chance. Likewise Gray, a decent player who has shown last year he has a lot to give.

Get them on the pitch for their development AND to give Porro/BJ/Son/whoever a rest because we need these players to survive and play some part in our next 11 games; those guys are gonna be injured very soon and are too tired to perform anyway.

Ange is shooting himself in the foot by playing exhausted players. Regardless of formation etc, just choosing exhausted players is a crazy thing to do.

 

[braineclipse]

We've had the cups discussion many times.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, Angelos Postecoglou, why on earth is he running certain players into the ground?

They are running on empty after 5 minutes, nearly dead after 60, walking around in a daze, and he refuses to sub them.

Spence is a very capable player with decent experience, give him a chance. Likewise Gray, a decent player who has shown last year he has a lot to give.

Get them on the pitch for their development AND to give Porro/BJ/Son/whoever a rest because we need these players to survive and play some part in our next 11 games; those guys are gonna be injured very soon and are too tired to perform anyway.

Ange is shooting himself in the foot by playing exhausted players. Regardless of formation etc, just choosing exhausted players is a crazy thing to do.

The Spence thing is confusing to me. Him not even being brought on when Fulham went down to 10 men... 11 v 11 maybe Porro's passing ability was seen as too important to sub him, particularly with Romero out. At best marginal. But against 10 men that too went out the window.

Perhaps Spence isn't fully fit? Included on the bench because we have room? Not strange to have him on the bench if he can't even do 10 minutes.

For Gray, Bergvall, Lankshear and Moore I think perhaps an important factor is what Ange sees as best for their development. Difficult to know from the outside.

But right now, in the upcoming games (and weeks after that) I think he has to trust Spence, Gray and Bergvall more, perhaps also Lankshear. At least some of them. And we have to hope that the settling in and development that's happened so far will give results on the pitch.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The Spence thing is confusing to me. Him not even being brought on when Fulham went down to 10 men... 11 v 11 maybe Porro's passing ability was seen as too important to sub him, particularly with Romero out. At best marginal. But against 10 men that too went out the window.

Perhaps Spence isn't fully fit? Included on the bench because we have room? Not strange to have him on the bench if he can't even do 10 minutes.

For Gray, Bergvall, Lankshear and Moore I think perhaps an important factor is what Ange sees as best for their development. Difficult to know from the outside.

But right now, in the upcoming games (and weeks after that) I think he has to trust Spence, Gray and Bergvall more, perhaps also Lankshear. At least some of them. And we have to hope that the settling in and development that's happened so far will give results on the pitch.

Spence came on vs city
Lad assume he is fit because of that alone

 

[Mikey10]

Perhaps Spence isn't fully fit? Included on the bench because we have room? Not strange to have him on the bench if he can't even do 10 minutes.

I think he was stripped off and ready to come on during Sunday's game, only to be told to sit back down once the sending off happened. According to The View From The Lane podcast (I think...I listened to a few yesterday!), he didn't look best pleased.

 

[braineclipse]

I think he was stripped off and ready to come on during Sunday's game, only to be told to sit back down once the sending off happened. According to The View From The Lane podcast (I think...I listened to a few yesterday!), he didn't look best pleased.

Cheers for the info.

Seems a strange one to me. Would have thought those would have been good conditions for him to come on in.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think he was stripped off and ready to come on during Sunday's game, only to be told to sit back down once the sending off happened. According to The View From The Lane podcast (I think...I listened to a few yesterday!), he didn't look best pleased.

Agreed
We saw that from the south stand
Was so bizarre

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just heard that after 51 games ange spike have us 6th
That’s based on when he joined of course
Is anyone expecting more

 

[Gazza]

I wonder if Levy will try to get Spurs also into basketball, Ange would be the perfect basketball coach for a basket case club.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Just heard that after 51 games ange spike have us 6th
That’s based on when he joined of course
Is anyone expecting more

Based on the fact the club built a new stadium to "make us more competitive", then yes.
Based on what the club actually do in terms of football decisions and transfers, i shouldn't really

 

[Muttley]

Just heard that after 51 games ange spike have us 6th
That’s based on when he joined of course
Is anyone expecting more

Yes, because it's not just 51 games. This squad build started in about 2022, we have spent an absolute fortune in the transfer market and have an amazing pipeline of youngsters.

The tactical system on the pitch is appearing to be a problem, and a root cause of why things are sub-optimal. It is the elephant in the room as to why we're not higher than 6th.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes, because it's not just 51 games. This squad build started in about 2022, we have spent an absolute fortune in the transfer market and have an amazing pipeline of youngsters.

The tactical system on the pitch is appearing to be a problem, and a root cause of why things are sub-optimal. It is the elephant in the room as to why we're not higher than 6th.

A description from the extra inch podcast that's also been used here before is that Ange's system requires all the parts to be working to be good. Similarly to a lot of top coaches like Pep, Klopp and Conte.

To me a bit different to for example Mourinho (when good), Emery and other (also top coaches) who are more "no matter what happens we'll be in a situation to grind out a result" with their systems.

We have been assembling this squad for quite a while now as you say, we have spent quite a lot of money. But we have gone for a fairly long term squad building approach. If there were no further changes (hypothetically) this squad should be better in 3 years than it is now.

When injuries hit hard and the fixture list gets congested that will leave an Ange team with this squad building approach suffering. Probably more than say if we had Emery in charge for example.

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special. And wanting real success from our financial situation and the starting point pre Ange we have to build something special I think. I think the ceiling over time is higher with that approach.

That's how players like Gray, Bergvall, Spence, Moore, Odobert etc will learn to play well in this system. That's how players like Udogie, Johnson, Dragusin and Sarr can take further steps playing this system. Not abandoning it when things get tough, but sticking to it, learning and developing to become key players for us.

 

[Muttley]

A description from the extra inch podcast that's also been used here before is that Ange's system requires all the parts to be working to be good. Similarly to a lot of top coaches like Pep, Klopp and Conte.

To me a bit different to for example Mourinho (when good), Emery and other (also top coaches) who are more "no matter what happens we'll be in a situation to grind out a result" with their systems.

We have been assembling this squad for quite a while now as you say, we have spent quite a lot of money. But we have gone for a fairly long term squad building approach. If there were no further changes (hypothetically) this squad should be better in 3 years than it is now.

When injuries hit hard and the fixture list gets congested that will leave an Ange team with this squad building approach suffering. Probably more than say if we had Emery in charge for example.

I like that approach. I think that's our best way to build something that will be special. And wanting real success from our financial situation and the starting point pre Ange we have to build something special I think. I think the ceiling over time is higher with that approach.

That's how players like Gray, Bergvall, Spence, Moore, Odobert etc will learn to play well in this system. That's how players like Udogie, Johnson, Dragusin and Sarr can take further steps playing this system. Not abandoning it when things get tough, but sticking to it, learning and developing to become key players for us.

My guess is it's probably easier to set your stall out and insist your team plays the way you eventually want it to play from day 1.

I genuinely believe that it is harder to look at the skillsets you currently have and then plot a path to your go-to system. Poch did that. He didn't really have the players for the 4-2-3-1 he really wanted. In the 3 behind Harry he first of all had them playing to their positions. He then changed it so they could move very laterally, especially Eriksen and Dele. He also got Dele to play as a false 9 so Kane could become one of the 3. He also changed midfield. He moved Dier in there and got him to become the 3rd defender allowing Toby and Jan to spread wide. However, he then brought in Wanyama who would spend way more time ahead of Dembele than Dier did. Then we finally had the goals flowing and the meanest defence in the league.

I'm still trying to convince myself that Ange is going to get us there. It is really hard when you see opposition teams dancing down our wings and creating chances for fun because of his tactics. Ange literally watched Fulham do that and never once made a single tactical change to nullify it and get us back in the ascendency. He let Silva cut our supply lines and we were reduced to 3 shots on target in almost 100 mins. Saying that, I'm not sure Ange will ever be bad enough like Poch became and Jose and Conte were to see a meltdown. He seems to be creating a culture and is unlikely to lose the changing room, especially now we've removed some of the older heads that didn't play nicely with previous managers.

However, I do think the the other reasons like age of squad and gaps, injury profiles etc stop us from really teasing apart the questionable tactics too much. There is always an excuse for why Ange can't have his perfect tactical execution. I'm not sure we're looking in the right place at times and think he should be under more scrutiny for his tactics.