Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

It really is, you can have any number of players filling the M/F area but unless there is one there who can see danger being left exposed we will always struggle. But as they say its all about o pinions so

Going around in circles mate as i said we will have to agree to disagree.

we will have to agree to disgree.

I will add that I’m fine with getting a Better DM in
I just don’t see how they fix the inability to defend crosses

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We're always defending sprinting back towards our own goal, from losing the ball high up the pitch and being overcommitted.

Spoke before about sending 1 full back up at a time, letting them overlap instead (which we did when Son was out, Werner and Udogie making a much stronger partnership) etc

It's like the West Ham game, Ange makes the adjustments so he sees the issue then just reverts back to his preferred the next game. Reminds me of Pep constantly trying to prove how smart he is.

Issue vs West Ham was Maddison was where Udogie was meant to go which took him out of the game
Sarr came in and suddenly there was room for destiny to attack
Agree with the logic of one full back attacking at a time
But remember vs Ipswich we had 8 defenders in the box for their first goal
Be Brighton when wellbeck scored we had 9 men back… and he was still unmarked

 

[Muttley]

Liverpool have the what defence in the league with no DM. Their CBs take charge

Liverpool is actually a decent comparison. They've conceded 6 PL goals. We've conceded 13.

The big difference in my mind is that Slot instated Gravenberch in the 6 role. He is the constant at the base of midfield, and Szoboszlai, Macallister and Jones have to rotate around and ahead of him. I think Gravenberch is doing it the Carrick way. He is intercepting and starting their moves. He's a great passer, and isn't caught ahead of play.

This was the role I was hoping Bentancur would develop into for us after those injuries. I still think he'd be good at it, if Ange allowed him to play as an orthodox 6.

Ange needs a Gravenberch.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Liverpool is actually a decent comparison. They've conceded 6 PL goals. We've conceded 13.

The big difference in my mind is that Slot instated Gravenberch in the 6 role. He is the constant at the base of midfield, and Szoboszlai, Macallister and Jones have to rotate around and ahead of him. I think Gravenberch is doing it the Carrick way. He is intercepting and starting their moves. He's a great passer, and isn't caught ahead of play.

This was the role I was hoping Bentancur would develop into for us after those injuries. I still think he'd be good at it, if Ange allowed him to play as an orthodox 6.

Ange needs a Gravenberch.

The difference js the pool CBS lead
VVD and. Konate don’t fudge around

 

[Kompakted]

I will add that I’m fine with getting a Better DM in
I just don’t see how they fix the inability to defend crosses

A well delivered cross is very HARD to defend against. I'm sorry but Paolo Maldini reincarnated is going to struggle running towards his own goal as a ball is whipped right into his zone in the mixer.

So the trick to defending crosses is minimise the number of crosses you have to defend and also impact the quality of crosses you have to defend.

If you give the opponents the ball in space on the flank they'll not only get the cross in, but if they've got enough space they'll whip it in accurately. Any player at this level is capable of a devastating cross given the space and time - they'll put in a ball you'll be lucky not to score an own goal with if you touch it.

The easiest cross to defend against is the lofted cross. You generate more of those by getting tight early when they have the ball on the flank. They have to hit it high (loft) in order to beat the first man in those cases.

Where the DM and general midfield shape helps is it makes it harder for the opponent to engineer a situation where they're on the ball in space on the flank in the first place.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A well delivered cross is very HARD to defend against. I'm sorry but Paolo Maldini reincarnated is going to struggle running towards his own goal as a ball is whipped right into his zone in the mixer.

So the trick to defending crosses is minimise the number of crosses you have to defend and also impact the quality of crosses you have to defend.

If you give the opponents the ball in space on the flank they'll not only get the cross in, but if they've got enough space they'll whip it in accurately. Any player at this level is capable of a devastating cross given the space and time - they'll put in a ball you'll be lucky not to score an own goal with if you touch it.

The easiest cross to defend against is the lofted cross. You generate more of those by getting tight early when they have the ball on the flank. They have to hit it high (loft) in order to beat the first man in those cases.

Where the DM and general midfield shape helps is it makes it harder for the opponent to engineer a situation where they're on the ball in space on the flank in the first place.

agree about a great cross
Sonny’s the other week was outstanding and a prime example of the undefendable
We’re not conceding from them thiugh
We’re conceding from crosses in the mixer that we just don’t deal with for varying reasons
Ipswich Cuti had the evading didn’t get enough on it when challenged
Palace it was so tame that they had a player dummy it
West Ham we had 3 chances to clear it before the cross came in
Ipswich… 3 players could stop the attacker and didn’t. Then bentacur does take it out of play and then… the unmarked scorer had 3 men around him IIRC and they all waved their hands in apology to someone
If they were blinding crosses I’d be fine

 

[Kompakted]

We're always defending sprinting back towards our own goal, from losing the ball high up the pitch and being overcommitted.

Spoke before about sending 1 full back up at a time, letting them overlap instead (which we did when Son was out, Werner and Udogie making a much stronger partnership) etc

It's like the West Ham game, Ange makes the adjustments so he sees the issue then just reverts back to his preferred the next game. Reminds me of Pep constantly trying to prove how smart he is.

Yeah the biggest one for me is the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game. We dominated them that game, got back to 1 - 1. No need to then be so high and so open. But we were, to the point where one pass put them clean through...it's the sort of goal you should only concede if you're 1 goal down and it's into stoppage time....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah the biggest one for me is the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game. We dominated them that game, got back to 1 - 1. No need to then be so high and so open. But we were, to the point where one pass put them clean through...it's the sort of goal you should only concede if you're 1 goal down and it's into stoppage time....

Yep

 

[mudshark]

He doesn't think you have to be able to defend; he's said so. He thinks, 'If you score one, we'll score two,' except we don't, do we? We pıss around with the ball until we lose it and concede another one, because those are the players ENIC are willing to pay for. On top of that, he's announced that he's never going to adapt his style or approach regardless of circumstance and is always just going to keep banging all our heads against the same wall. He hasn't got used to the idea that he hasn't got most of the best players in the division in his team and isn't facing pub team opposition every week, and he's been here over a year now. In other words, he's an effing macaron. I honestly don't see him lasting a lot longer and I will be totally emotionless when Levy finally pushes him out the door, while at the same time holding the little bald basket solely responsible for all of it.

 

[metalgear]

Fellow Aussie, Mile Jedinak is the defensive coach - why isn't Ange sacking him?

Also:

• Ryan Mason: Assistant manager
• Nick Montgomery: Assistant manager
• Sérgio Raimundo: Assistant manager
• Rob Burch: Goalkeeping coach
• Michael Cooper: First team physical performance coach

Are these guys really any good?

 

[metalgear]

He doesn't think you have to be able to defend; he's said so. He thinks, 'If you score one, we'll score two,' except we don't, do we? We pıss around with the ball until we lose it and concede another one, because those are the players ENIC are willing to pay for. On top of that, he's announced that he's never going to adapt his style or approach regardless of circumstance and is always just going to keep banging all our heads against the same wall. He hasn't got used to the idea that he hasn't got most of the best players in the division in his team and isn't facing pub team opposition every week, and he's been here over a year now. In other words, he's an effing macaron. I honestly don't see him lasting a lot longer and I will be totally emotionless when Levy finally pushes him out the door, while at the same time holding the little bald basket solely responsible for all of it.

i agree.

ange is happy throwing bodies forward regardless of whether they are being utilised or not.

it leaves gaps at the back and also tires players unnecessarily. it is very inefficient and that's why other teams can out run us and look fitter, while we look tired tracking back and lose concentration.

but he's changed things up by dropping maddison and encouraging more shots instead of only crossing from the byline - so there is hope that he can continue to improve. that said it took a very long time for him to realise the need for change, so i am not optimistic that he can turn this around with the remainder of the season.

 

[Muttley]

Fellow Aussie, Mile Jedinak is the defensive coach - why isn't Ange sacking him?

Also:

• Ryan Mason: Assistant manager
• Nick Montgomery: Assistant manager
• Sérgio Raimundo: Assistant manager
• Rob Burch: Goalkeeping coach
• Michael Cooper: First team physical performance coach

Are these guys really any good?

I think the better question is whether these guys truly believe in the tactics that Ange is asking them to coach into the players.

When Mason and Wells ran the show for 2 short stints, they weren't setting us up like Ange is now. I thought they did an amazing job to unscramble all the player's heads so quickly after both Jose and Conte/Stellini had drilled them a certain way. I'll always look back fondly at the Leicester and Leeds season finale games under Mason. Leicester have never recovered from us killing their CL hopes and obviously Leeds were relegated. Both were thumped. The training ground routine after Kane had missed 100 consecutive free kicks, so the pair got the ball shifted a yard and we all watched Kane smack the moving ball into the top corner. Great stuff.

I'm not worried about the coaches above. I'm still on the fence whether Ange's tactics will prevail in the mid to long term. I have a feeling it will be our manager who will need to change eventually. That could be change tactics or change jobs. It will be his choice.

 

[Kompakted]

Fellow Aussie, Mile Jedinak is the defensive coach - why isn't Ange sacking him?

Also:

• Ryan Mason: Assistant manager
• Nick Montgomery: Assistant manager
• Sérgio Raimundo: Assistant manager
• Rob Burch: Goalkeeping coach
• Michael Cooper: First team physical performance coach

Are these guys really any good?

I have no idea if they're any good, what I would say is that coupled with Ange as head coach, we have very little collective experience there of coaching at the top level of European football. It's a very young and inexperienced set up overall:
Head coach: age: 59, highest level coached prior to spurs: SPL (Celtic)
Assistant: Ryan Mason: age: 33, highest level coached prior to spurs: N/A
Assistant: Nick Montgomery: age: 43, highest level coaxhed: SPL (Hibernian)
Assistant: Sergio Reimundo, age: 40, highest level coached: SPL (Hibernian)
GK coach: Rob Burch, age: 40, highest level coaxhed: Championship/PL (fulham)
Michael Cooper: fitness coach, 25 years old, unknown experience

 

[Grays_1890]

Alot of well crafted guess work on these pages

 

[Lemonade Money]

Alot of well crafted guess work on these pages

Alot of bollox.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Feels a bit like that international break before AVB got sacked: we came back from then to play away at Emirates Marketing Project as well..

Oh for a reversal of that game and WE win 6-0 eh?

Yeah, right...no chance we keep a clean sheet

 

[glorygloryeze]

He doesn't think you have to be able to defend; he's said so. He thinks, 'If you score one, we'll score two,' except we don't, do we? We pıss around with the ball until we lose it and concede another one, because those are the players ENIC are willing to pay for. On top of that, he's announced that he's never going to adapt his style or approach regardless of circumstance and is always just going to keep banging all our heads against the same wall. He hasn't got used to the idea that he hasn't got most of the best players in the division in his team and isn't facing pub team opposition every week, and he's been here over a year now. In other words, he's an effing macaron. I honestly don't see him lasting a lot longer and I will be totally emotionless when Levy finally pushes him out the door, while at the same time holding the little bald basket solely responsible for all of it.

I really want someone to post a rebuttal to this post...

 

[braineclipse]

He doesn't think you have to be able to defend; he's said so. He thinks, 'If you score one, we'll score two,' except we don't, do we? We pıss around with the ball until we lose it and concede another one, because those are the players ENIC are willing to pay for. On top of that, he's announced that he's never going to adapt his style or approach regardless of circumstance and is always just going to keep banging all our heads against the same wall. He hasn't got used to the idea that he hasn't got most of the best players in the division in his team and isn't facing pub team opposition every week, and he's been here over a year now. In other words, he's an effing macaron. I honestly don't see him lasting a lot longer and I will be totally emotionless when Levy finally pushes him out the door, while at the same time holding the little bald basket solely responsible for all of it.

Just like every manager his statements shouldn't all be taken at face value. And like all people in like his comments should be interpreted in context.

We have adjusted. We're defending set pieces better, we're defending against counter attacks better. Look at the City game. Look at starting Kulusevski and Maddison vs Sarr and a DM. He does adapt, but within certain principles.

I think he's well aware of the challenges ahead. I think he's well aware he doesn't have most of the best players in the league. Look where he's come from, look at how far he's come. You don't come that far by being naive.

 

[braineclipse]

I think the better question is whether these guys truly believe in the tactics that Ange is asking them to coach into the players.

When Mason and Wells ran the show for 2 short stints, they weren't setting us up like Ange is now. I thought they did an amazing job to unscramble all the player's heads so quickly after both Jose and Conte/Stellini had drilled them a certain way. I'll always look back fondly at the Leicester and Leeds season finale games under Mason. Leicester have never recovered from us killing their CL hopes and obviously Leeds were relegated. Both were thumped. The training ground routine after Kane had missed 100 consecutive free kicks, so the pair got the ball shifted a yard and we all watched Kane smack the moving ball into the top corner. Great stuff.

I'm not worried about the coaches above. I'm still on the fence whether Ange's tactics will prevail in the mid to long term. I have a feeling it will be our manager who will need to change eventually. That could be change tactics or change jobs. It will be his choice.

He will tweak his tactics, as he already has. He probably will never change in a way some people seemingly want to see.

I agree Mason and Wells did well enough for shorter stints. Then again you could say the same about Ange and his first period here (and some later shorter periods).

I think the biggest issues we're currently running into aren't tactical. Brighton second half, Palace game, Ipswich. For sure some tactical stuff that could be changed. But I think whoever our manager was at this point we'd be running into issues like this at some point. Even with the most flexible, change happy manager we could find.

Complacency and a lack of composure will make any tactical approach look insufficient. With a young squad, lacking some options, facing injuries, being back in Europe and a bit of bad luck (imo). These issues would arise with just about everyone. And with just about everyone would take time to sort out.

Giving him time or not to me depends not on tactical stuff, but on if we believe he's the kind of leader to help these young players develop in these key areas. For me he seems the right kind of character. I would like to give him time. But a poor run now would make that increasingly difficult as pressure will increase.

 

[harr1984]

I really want someone to post a rebuttal to this post...

It's simple really, if people want to take snippets of quotes from him without context then you can create any argument you want to. I would love to find where he has specifically said he doesn't think you have to be able to defend? There's quite a reach between that and just having an attack minded approach. Sure 'if they score one, we will score two' will be the attitude, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about us conceding sloppy goals in the first place.

He has clearly made tactical changes (subtle or not so subtle) in certain games previously when he has felt the need, my memory isn't good enough to list them all but one that sticks out is the game at home to Emirates Marketing Project last season when the Goons wanted us to win and we played really well despite losing.

If certain people a) Don't agree with this style of play and/or b) Can't handle the fact it's going to take longer than a season to get the squad of players he wants for this system and to perfect the system itself then that's cool, perfectly entitled to feel whatever you feel. But don't come out with nonsense about the guy just to suit such an agenda.....