Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Bedfordspurs]

But it's our system that has the players covering space and not attackers when balls are being played into our box both in live play and set plays (it happens to often for it to be opposite of instruction). It's our system that has the wingers especially Johnson stay higher up the pitch leaving our FBs isolated and our CBs to defend our wide and thus leaving holes in the middle, it's also our system that plays plays a high line and designates Romero as the forward pressing defender and VDV and the mopping up sweeper. It's our system that plays typical 8s as a 6 and then wonders why it doesn't quite work the way we expect. It's our system that plays a possession game but then has non possession capable wide men, causing breakdown in attacks and loss of that possession, it's also our system that demands to play short constantly with all the inherent risks that involves. How many of the chances we concede come directly from an intercepted pass from the defence or midfield pressure on the receiver (lots of not the vast majority!).

I'm all for systems and I don't hate this system but typically you even create a system to suit the players you already have to maximise their capabilities or you use a system and replace the unsuited players. I think Ange has been doing the latter but with no concession to certain players being completely unsuited to how he wants to play and hence the various breakdowns in what he's trying to achieve. I think he has a little too much belief in his system Vs the qualities and suitabilities of the players he has available. We really don't have technicians and technicians is what his football requires.

It’s not
How do you explain is outnumbering Ipswich 2-1 and not working anyone
Or Palacw
Your back talking about how many we concede form interceptions … the answer this season is 2.l I believe. 2 counter attacking goals
Chance creation against is one thing. But it’s kind irrelevant if they dont score. What is key is we have played some poorer sides and conceded even poor goals
Ipswich… cross… unmarked man scores
Palace… cross… unmarked man scores
Lestah.. cross…. Unmarked man scores
West Ham.. cross.. you get the idea it’s an issue now?!?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1856130550052086259

The goals are here just to refresh

 

[Bishop]

For me Sarr is still playing further up leaving Bentancur or Bissouma relatively isolated if our attack breaks down. What I'm talking about would be more Bissouma and Bentancur playing in front of the defence together similar to how Dembele and Dier/Wanyama did for Poch. Therefore if we lose the ball and get countered you've always got at least 4 players back generally.

Poch's system wasn't perfect either, it had us too defensive at times and we often struggled to break teams down due to the over reliance on Eriksen as the be all and end all of our creativity.

There's a balance to be found somewhere between what Poch did and what Ange is doing. I don't think Ange is a mission miles off but to accept the reality of his squad and it's limitations. There are just some players who are incapable of performing the way his system requires and some adjustments he needs to implement like quite obviously for me playing longer passes into space sometimes. We are quite predictable in what we are going to do and are not so good at doing it to just keep plodding away with no adjustments.

 

[Bishop]

It’s not
How do you explain is outnumbering Ipswich 2-1 and not working anyone
Or Palacw
Your back talking about how many we concede form interceptions … the answer this season is 2.l I believe. 2 counter attacking goals
Chance creation against is one thing. But it’s kind irrelevant if they dont score. What is key is we have played some poorer sides and conceded even poor goals
Ipswich… cross… unmarked man scores
Palace… cross… unmarked man scores
Lestah.. cross…. Unmarked man scores
West Ham.. cross.. you get the idea it’s an issue now?!?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1856130550052086259

The goals are here just to refresh

Dude you're forgetting what I said the other day and even in that post. We don't defend the man we defend the space. It's the same scheme he has designed for the attack, we don't cross to a man we cross to a space. So of course we make blunders defending crosses because we aren't defending them at all, we are defending the space, but guess what that's not where the ball ends up.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

For me Sarr is still playing further up leaving Bentancur or Bissouma relatively isolated if our attack breaks down. What I'm talking about would be more Bissouma and Bentancur playing in front of the defence together similar to how Dembele and Dier/Wanyama did for Poch. Therefore if we lose the ball and get countered you've always got at least 4 players back generally.

You’re then not talking about a diamond. You’re taking about 4-2-3-1 the Poch system.
I’ll reference mu above post, we aren’t struggling with counters, we’re struggling with basic crosses. Crosses just into the box to unmarked men even when we have more players in the box. That’s inexcusable to me

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Dude you're forgetting what I said the other day and even in that post. We don't defend the man we defend the space. It's the same scheme he has designed for the attack, we don't cross to a man we cross to a space. So of course we make blunders defending crosses because we aren't defending them at all, we are defending the space, but guess what that's not where the ball ends up.

I agree we seem to defend the space
That the issue
Not intercepted passes.
All we need are defenders to pick men. Instantly makes it harder to score against us
And I don’t think it’s tactical to leave so many unmarked. I think it’s incompetence

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Poch's system wasn't perfect either, it had us too defensive at times and we often struggled to break teams down due to the over reliance on Eriksen as the be all and end all of our creativity.

There's a balance to be found somewhere between what Poch did and what Ange is doing. I don't think Ange is a mission miles off but to accept the reality of his squad and it's limitations. There are just some players who are incapable of performing the way his system requires and some adjustments he needs to implement like quite obviously for me playing longer passes into space sometimes. We are quite predictable in what we are going to do and are not so good at doing it to just keep plodding away with no adjustments.

It’s why teams know if they cross against us our defence will brick the bed
It’s predictable

 

[Bishop]

I agree we seem to defend the space
That the issue
Not intercepted passes.
All we need are defenders to pick men. Instantly makes it harder to score against us
And I don’t think it’s tactical to leave so many unmarked. I think it’s incompetence

See I don't believe that. We do the same on set plays and it happens to often for it to be incompetence of the players versus the instruction the coach is giving them. If they are truly going against instruction he should be dropping them, but it doesn't matter who plays, Romero, VDV, Dragusin, Davies etc it still happens. So is that systemic or is it that all of our defenders (who look composed and competent away from Spurs) aren't capable of picking up a man when a ball is crossed?

I think it's far to coincidental that we've seen the training footage and what we've seen drilled are crosses to area not a player and obviously our defenders in those drills are having to defend those kinds of attacks. Then its strangely coincidental that in game our defenders then also defend an area and not the player.....hmmmm.....

 

[Muttley]

I agree we seem to defend the space
That the issue
Not intercepted passes.
All we need are defenders to pick men. Instantly makes it harder to score against us
And I don’t think it’s tactical to leave so many unmarked. I think it’s incompetence

On set plays, it's tactical. In open play, I think it is down to the players.

Also, even if the guys in the middle aren't marking, the guys on the flanks make it so easy to get a quality crosses in, especially Son and Johnson. Udogie is way to lackadaisical as well.

Ange needs to be addressing both areas. We can't wait for months and months like we did last season for Ange to change things around.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

On set plays, it's tactical. In open play, I think it is down to the players.

Also, even if the guys in the middle aren't marking, the guys on the flanks make it so easy to get a quality crosses in, especially Son and Johnson. Udogie is way to lackadaisical as well.

Ange needs to be addressing both areas. We can't wait for months and months like we did last season for Ange to change things around.

My thoughts exactly
I’ve never seen or know a defensive set up that’s tells you not to mark the opposition in normal play

 

[Bedfordspurs]

See I don't believe that. We do the same on set plays and it happens to often for it to be incompetence of the players versus the instruction the coach is giving them. If they are truly going against instruction he should be dropping them, but it doesn't matter who plays, Romero, VDV, Dragusin, Davies etc it still happens. So is that systemic or is it that all of our defenders (who look composed and competent away from Spurs) aren't capable of picking up a man when a ball is crossed?

I think it's far to coincidental that we've seen the training footage and what we've seen drilled are crosses to area not a player and obviously our defenders in those drills are having to defend those kinds of attacks. Then its strangely coincidental that in game our defenders then also defend an area and not the player.....hmmmm.....

Set plays it’s ann actual system, with pros and cons. I’m not sure what is the best way, but I’m not the coach
I don’t think Ange or any coach is instructing the players to defend zonally when defending in normal oaky. You don’t have zones because the play is dynamic
Have you ever seen a team defend zonally in normal play? I haven’t
Just because of a one minute video of attacking practice, which highlights a way we what to attack, I don’t see it correlating to how we defend. For me they are very separate things I assume when we coach, but I’m not there fo see that of course
And the actions of players away form spurs is kinda irrelevant. International football is a poorer standard than the prem. there is little to no coaching and it’s all about fitting a system and playing with some cohesion in a short period when you play

 

[Muttley]

Set plays it’s ann actual system, with pros and cons. I’m not sure what is the best way, but I’m not the coach
I don’t think Ange or any coach is instructing the players to defend zonally when defending in normal oaky. You don’t have zones because the play is dynamic
Have you ever seen a team defend zonally in normal play? I haven’t
Hush because of a one minute video of attacking practice, which highlights a way we what to attack, I don’t see it correlating to how we defend. For me they are very separate things I assume when we coach, but I’m not there fo see that of course

There's probably a case here that in the SPL or J-League Ange's tactics are quite disruptive, but not in the PL. This is where we learn a lot about Ange's adaptability long term as he takes a step up in his management career.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There's probably a case here that in the SPL or J-League Ange's tactics are quite disruptive, but not in the PL. This is where we learn a lot about Ange's adaptability long term as he takes a step up in his management career.

Maybe.
But we have seen teams here bring disruptive tactics and be successful
But I just cannot believe that not marking an attacker is part of any system. It’s Sunday league level

 

[Bishop]

Set plays it’s ann actual system, with pros and cons. I’m not sure what is the best way, but I’m not the coach
I don’t think Ange or any coach is instructing the players to defend zonally when defending in normal oaky. You don’t have zones because the play is dynamic
Have you ever seen a team defend zonally in normal play? I haven’t
Just because of a one minute video of attacking practice, which highlights a way we what to attack, I don’t see it correlating to how we defend. For me they are very separate things I assume when we coach, but I’m not there fo see that of course
And the actions of players away form spurs is kinda irrelevant. International football is a poorer standard than the prem. there is little to no coaching and it’s all about fitting a system and playing with some cohesion in a short period when you play

Actually yes there have been teams who zonal mark in open space, I'm trying to remember specific examples, but they would mark as a player came into their space and move them on to teammates when the player moved out of their space. It's not a controversial or even a new idea, many teams have tried it over the years. I can even find articles discussing it's use with a quick Google search.

Zonal marking: football tactics explained - Coaches' Voice

We take a close look at zonal marking – both at set-pieces and in open play – its benefits, and which teams and coaches use it when defending

learning.coachesvoice.com

 

[Muttley]

Maybe.
But we have seen teams here bring disruptive tactics and be successful
But I just cannot believe that not marking an attacker is part of any system. It’s Sunday league level

It also implies that Spurs aren't simulating match day scenarios on the training ground. The ball hits the back of the net and everyone does a high five. What should happen is that Wells, Mason etc singles out the defender for not being tight enough and makes them do that play over and over until it's sorted. I'm an old git now, but even I remember my managers blowing the whistle and everyone had to freeze in the spot they were on. That is coaching.

Ange has very clear ideas on his philosophy, but he's never come across as a detail maniac like a Pep or Klopp.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It also implies that Spurs aren't simulating match day scenarios on the training ground. The ball hits the back of the net and everyone does a high five. What should happen is that Wells, Mason etc singles out the defender for not being tight enough and makes them do that play over and over until it's sorted. I'm an old git now, but even I remember my managers blowing the whistle and everyone had to freeze in the spot they were on. That is coaching.

Ange has very clear ideas on his philosophy, but he's never come across as a detail maniac like a Pep or Klopp.

That what I think @Bishop is saying too
May be the case

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Actually yes there have been teams who zonal mark in open space, I'm trying to remember specific examples, but they would mark as a player came into their space and move them on to teammates when the player moved out of their space. It's not a controversial or even a new idea, many teams have tried it over the years. I can even find articles discussing it's use with a quick Google search.

Zonal marking: football tactics explained - Coaches' Voice

We take a close look at zonal marking – both at set-pieces and in open play – its benefits, and which teams and coaches use it when defending

learning.coachesvoice.com

I’d love to see some footage to compare how we do it then
It’s not something I saw Celtic do but then it’s not the same calibre of opposition to expose it either
Just read that article and it even has images of us vs city, but it looks like contes spurs
It does reference compactness which is the exact opposite of how we defend

 

[Yiddo]

What that clips proves is Romero is always out of position, Van de ven then covers Romeros man, Udogie then covers Van de Vens man and no one is picking up Udogies man. It also happens on the other side aswell. Romero and Porro are the biggest weakness in that back 4.

 

[harr1984]

The thing is some people have been talking as if Romero has been pressing high up since Ange came here - that's not the case. In his early days he was highlighted for it on Match of the Day and Sky for his aggressive high pressing demonstrating both how it's successful and suicidal.

Nothing has changed, obviously it's amplified when under Ange we are playing a high line but Romero has always done this hence his rash side.....

 

[monkeybarry]

It’s not
How do you explain is outnumbering Ipswich 2-1 and not working anyone
Or Palacw
Your back talking about how many we concede form interceptions … the answer this season is 2.l I believe. 2 counter attacking goals
Chance creation against is one thing. But it’s kind irrelevant if they dont score. What is key is we have played some poorer sides and conceded even poor goals
Ipswich… cross… unmarked man scores
Palace… cross… unmarked man scores
Lestah.. cross…. Unmarked man scores
West Ham.. cross.. you get the idea it’s an issue now?!?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1856130550052086259

The goals are here just to refresh

And especially passive from the CBs.
You have to expect crosses into the box and be able to defend them.
A lot of those goals come from an area you'd expect Romero or a DM to be in.
A few of them are in areas where you'd expect to see a GK coming to command his box.

That said....do we let more crosses in than other teams?

 

[Kompakted]

You’re then not talking about a diamond. You’re taking about 4-2-3-1 the Poch system.
I’ll reference mu above post, we aren’t struggling with counters, we’re struggling with basic crosses. Crosses just into the box to unmarked men even when we have more players in the box. That’s inexcusable to me

But aren't we often struggling with crosses because we are never set to stop the cross in and we are never set properly to defend the cross because we are always being caught with our pants down on the counter? The thing about these stills where you see all our Defenders seemingly in position to defend a cross, it doesn't account for the chaos of the real situation. It's easy to say "they should be set, how have they scored from that position?" But so often we've been caught with wide gaps all over the place and yes, our players then bust a gut to get back and in theory they sometimes get into the ideal defensive position, they're on their arse when they do, mentally they're in a "holy s***t" panic mindset and we are on the back foot massively, I.e. even when we look set, we aren't set, and that's bourne out time and again on the pitch in this system, I'm sorry.