Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[90291Spur]

It's fair to an extent, but also remember the context that stat leaves out. In the same time frame:

* Arteta won the FA Cup despite coming in mid-season.
* Klopp took Liverpool to both the Carling Cup and Europa League finals while coming in mid-season.

Postecoglou dropped out of both trophies at basically the first hurdle, and is only two points ahead of where Arteta and Klopp were at this point. Despite having had free midweeks for basically the entire season to drill his system into the players, we look worse every passing game.

Postecoglou has much, much more to prove than either Arteta or Klopp did, imo.

Also remember that Klopp and Arteta were coming to clubs with recent and strong traditions of winning. Also remember that Arteta had played in the PL and spent a number of years learning from Pep. Also remember that Klopp had won trophies at Dortmund and had also got to a CL final.

 

[Baleforce]

Who said we can only replace with a inferior player? Where is your evidence?

If we let players go for less than they are worth, and commit to subsiding their salary for an amount of time, it reduces available funds for their replacement, meaning that replacement is of lower quality.

Each player has a cash value based on what they bring to the organisation, we have a fixed amount of cash to spend on new players, there has to be balance in and out.

We should always upgrade where we can, but we can't take punts just to move someone on the fanbase are bored with.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Also remember that Klopp and Arteta were coming to clubs with recent and strong traditions of winning. Also remember that Arteta had played in the PL and spent a number of years learning from Pep. Also remember that Klopp had won trophies at Dortmund and had also got to a CL final.

On the recent traditions of winning, I'd disagree in the case of Liverpool. At the time Klopp took over in late 2015, the most recent trophy Liverpool had won was the Carling Cup in March 2012, over 3 years ago. Arsenal, maybe.

As for Klopp and Arteta having pedigrees, I agree. It's why, as I said, Postecoglou has a lot more to prove than either Klopp or Arteta did, since with both of them, they both a) had careers that fans could use as evidence of why faith was warranted, and b) showed early on that the results would come if they were given time.

Postecoglou has no comparable career highlights to draw on, nor any trophy or even anything approaching one in his first season here. So, much more to prove, and why just citing his points total in isolation isn't a good argument imo.

 

[elltrev]

I think it’s clear that any negativity about Ange is based on our recent form, not the points total across the whole season. So with all due respect, I think those comparisons are a bit of a moot point. (Personally I still think the negativity is myopic and reactionary, but i can also see it’s not without justification!)

 

[NaijaSpurs]

If we let players go for less than they are worth, and commit to subsiding their salary for an amount of time, it reduces available funds for their replacement, meaning that replacement is of lower quality.

Each player has a cash value based on what they bring to the organisation, we have a fixed amount of cash to spend on new players, there has to be balance in and out.

We should always upgrade where we can, but we can't take punts just to move someone on the fanbase are bored with.

How much is PEH worth? When he starts we have only won once

 

[Baleforce]

How much is PEH worth?

He's got a year left, he's on about 100k a week, he's a solid PL CM.

If we sell in the summer, based on other players who have moved in recent windows, he's probably worth around 10-15m.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think it’s clear that any negativity about Ange is based on our recent form, not the points total across the whole season. So with all due respect, I think those comparisons are a bit of a moot point. (Personally I still think the negativity is myopic and reactionary, but i can also see it’s not without justification!)

Not entirely. The recent form is just our results catching up to our performances - we haven't performed well in a whole game since 2023. I think the recent rise in doubts about Postecoglou is because what is happening is the inverse of what instinctively should be happening - you would expect players to get more comfortable in a system as time goes on, mad results to improve, but instead things are continually getting worse.

I think @Bedfordspurs made the point that if the season were reversed and the first 10 games had happened now, people would be giddy. True, but that's because that's what *should be happening* if a manager's system is genuinely good - we improve as it is implemented. The reverse is, imo, a legitimate cause for concern, because it feeds the idea that he's been found out in a tougher league than Scotland, Japan or Australia.

None of that implies he shouldn't be here at the start of next season. But it does mean this season isn't quite the roaring success some people seem to see it as, imo. It's a roughly above average job.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

If we let players go for less than they are worth, and commit to subsiding their salary for an amount of time, it reduces available funds for their replacement, meaning that replacement is of lower quality.

Each player has a cash value based on what they bring to the organisation, we have a fixed amount of cash to spend on new players, there has to be balance in and out.

We should always upgrade where we can, but we can't take punts just to move someone on the fanbase are bored with.

I think if Ange had more faith in PEH he would started more matches

 

[Baleforce]

I think it’s clear that any negativity about Ange is based on our recent form, not the points total across the whole season. So with all due respect, I think those comparisons are a bit of a moot point. (Personally I still think the negativity is myopic and reactionary, but i can also see it’s not without justification!)

I don't think that true.

Some of the criticism is based on his philosophy (might just be me to be fair), but some is based on his lack of experience in top level football.

 

[Baleforce]

I think if Ange had more faith in PEH he would started more matches

I did use PEH as an example.

But I could equally have picked Royal, Son, Richi, Porro, Kulu, Bissouma, GLC, and Davies as players labelled on here by some as not good enough.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

He's got a year left, he's on about 100k a week, he's a solid PL CM.

If we sell in the summer, based on other players who have moved in recent windows, he's probably worth around 10-15m.

Well I think an Italian club could pay that money, so I do not think he will go for less than he is worth.

For clarification I think he us a solid mid level PL midfielder, not good enough for us.

The funny thing is that you go on about us not selling players for less than they are worth, the fact is most of the players we want to get rid off this summer are not worth much at all: Gill, Royal, Sess etc as well as most of the players on loan.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Not entirely. The recent form is just our results catching up to our performances - we haven't performed well in a whole game since 2023. I think the recent rise in doubts about Postecoglou is because what is happening is the inverse of what instinctively should be happening - you would expect players to get more comfortable in a system as time goes on, mad results to improve, but instead things are continually getting worse.

I think @Bedfordspurs made the point that if the season were reversed and the first 10 games had happened now, people would be giddy. True, but that's because that's what *should be happening* if a manager's system is genuinely good - we improve as it is implemented. The reverse is, imo, a legitimate cause for concern, because it feeds the idea that he's been found out in a tougher league than Scotland, Japan or Australia.

None of that implies he shouldn't be here at the start of next season. But it does mean this season isn't quite the roaring success some people seem to see it as, imo. It's a roughly above average job.

But …. It’s also worth looking at he ups and down some other “top” managers had in their starts and ends of their first seasons

Peps city team started brilliantly with 6 wins then we beat them and it changed

 

[Baleforce]

Well I think an Italian club could pay that money, so I do not think he will go for less than he is worth.

For clarification I think he us a solid mid level PL midfielder, not good enough for us.

The funny thing is that you go on about us not selling players for less than they are worth, the fact is most of the players we want to get rid off this summer are not worth much at all: Gill, Royal, Sess etc as well as most of the players on loan.

I'm happy to sell players for what they are worth.

My issue is giving them away just to get them out, because we can only spend what we get in.

 

[Baleforce]

But …. It’s also worth looking at he ups and down some other “top” managers had in their starts and ends of their first seasons

Peps city team started brilliantly with 6 wins then we beat them and it changed

View attachment 17115

comparisons with other managers starts at other clubs are apples and oranges

for every "look how this got turned around" there are fifteen "it just got worse and worse" stories

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And here’s arteta first 18 months

Lost of red here

 

[Bedfordspurs]

comparisons with other managers starts at other clubs are apples and oranges

for every "look how this got turned around" there are fifteen "it just got worse and worse" stories

is there really…. At the top end?
What is clear that clubs that stick with things do better than those who constantly react

 

[Baleforce]

is there really…. At the top end?
What is clear that clubs that stick with things do better than those who constantly react

only when they stick with the right manager though, the time has to be earned, how many clubs stuck with a manager and still got relegated?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

only when they stick with the right manager though, the time has to be earned, how many clubs stuck with a manager and still got relegated?

But what I’ve just shown you is tow examples of sticking with a manager even with ups and downs and you said

comparisons with other managers starts at other clubs are apples and oranges

for every "look how this got turned around" there are fifteen "it just got worse and worse" stories

What are the worse stories ?

 

[Baleforce]

But what I’ve just shown you is tow examples of sticking with a manager even with ups and downs and you said


What are the worse stories ?

United under Ole and ETH, Kompany at Burnley, McCarthy at Wolves, Steve Bruce everywhere, Kevin Keegan everywhere, McLaren, Strachan, Robson, Evans, Souness, Megson, Rodgers, Hughes, Trevor Francis, John Gregory.

 

[johnola]

Son is not a natural centre forward I agree. But we need a squad so I would keep Son

Oh so now you put the club captain, the scorer of 17 goals, on the bench.

Sounds worse than moving him on to me.