Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
Agreed, he said on his podcast recently that winning the FA Cup in 91 was the highlight of his career, no doubt his first love is Leicester, but I reckon we are next up.
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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo
- Thread starter tommysvr
- Start date
Agreed, he said on his podcast recently that winning the FA Cup in 91 was the highlight of his career, no doubt his first love is Leicester, but I reckon we are next up.
Yay. I guess?
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Obviously hyperbole but it is context ...
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Rather good this Angeball.
glorygloryeze
Jack Jull
So, we are starting to see how Ange wants us to play.
Whilst we have time to reflect a bit before the big game vs Liverpool (which will be far tougher than Arsenal imo - they are much more set-up to punish any lapses that occur because of pressing) how do people compare how we are playing and looking at this stage of his us under Pochettino at the same stage?
What i find really interesting is how calm Ange is when we concede or score goals.
Whilst we have time to reflect a bit before the big game vs Liverpool (which will be far tougher than Arsenal imo - they are much more set-up to punish any lapses that occur because of pressing) how do people compare how we are playing and looking at this stage of his us under Pochettino at the same stage?
What i find really interesting is how calm Ange is when we concede or score goals.
Poch's version of press has less protection than Ange's version. Here is my view
- Ange's system sits very high (way higher than Poch's system consistently)
- However Ange's system compresses the center of the park, you have the two CB's with Pivot (Bissouma) and two FBs tucked in in front of them, plus 3 attackers and 2 wingers in front, effectively in possession we do 2-3-5
- And our recovery pace is in both the CB (VDV) & FB's
What that translates to
- If we lose the ball, it's almost impossible to counter through the middle (very crowded), so opponent has to go wide (longer route)
- As compared to Poch a lot of counters came strait through the middle and you saw a lot of 1:1 or 2:2 against our CB's and Poch's recovery pace in defense was via Walker/Rose
There is a lot more to it with Ange, e.g.
- We don't hold lines as cleanly as other teams, players go to spaces
- We also bunch up in areas (overloads and triangles)
Having watch it work in practice, I'm far less concerned that the system will really lead us to be being badly exposed regularly (as was suggested and some pundits still think), there will be chances purely based on the amount of players upfield vs. a flaw in system
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Poch press was about more effort for the outcome
Poch also benefited from Kane and Dembele who are freakishly good an have no peers
It was also kinda new for the league
Anges is, as you say, more sophisticated because it trusts players in other areas to fill in centrally
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
Did Nuno even manage in one?
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Yeah
The invisible midfield game
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
One of the biggest differences is with the inverted full backs compared to Walker and Son bombing down the line. Wide attacking players staying wide more, particularly compared to Eriksen, but also Son.
Way more creative responsibility (and deeper) on Maddison than on Alli who was mostly getting around or beyond the striker. We play through Maddison while we played to Alli.
Rather different shape in settled attack. More reliant on dribbling one vs one wide vs. full backs overlapping.
I thought at our best under Pochettino our pressing was even higher/more relentless than it currently is under Ange. Not worse or better, but different.
We play better from the back and through high pressing than under Pochettino, but I think that's mostly that the full backs and goalkeeper are better on the ball now.
In settled deep defensive situations I think it looks fairly similar. Striker and a wide player trying to "cheat" a little bit. Maddison, like Alli, dropping into midfield.
Transitions defensively as you say are a bit different. Though when we were caught with Rose and/or Walker high up the pitch I think we did try to compress and make them attack wide as we do now. Becoming vulnerable to switches of play. Relying on centre backs doing well up against forwards in transition often somewhat wide.
FatBloke
Niko Kranjcar
We can probably discuss this for hours, but I see Maddison's role being much closer to Eriksen's than Dele's -- an attacking playmaker with pressing responsibilities, trying to play balls through the defensive line.
Under peak Poch, we used Dier to bolster CM when we were in possession, with Walker and Rose staying wide. Whereas I think now we use wingbacks to bolster CM and wide forwards to attack.
I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers, or have the time to really look into our tactics and team shape, but it's really interesting stuff and highlights how a formation is so much more than just a "4-3-3" or a "4-5-1".
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Definitely agree. Maddison's role is much closer to Eriksen's, even though he plays in a different position. I was comparing based on positions which is limited in it's usefulness, but somewhat relevant as the starting positions and where players operate most of the time is somewhat reflected in their position.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Another thing I've noticed is how patient our centre backs, particularly Romero is on the ball. Under Pochettino we had limited creativity in the centre. Mostly if Dembele dribbled past someone or Eriksen dropped into those areas.
Related to Raziel's previous point of overloading in some areas we're more happy to overload in the centre, trust Maddison, Bissouma and the inverted full backs to deal with the ball in congested areas before releasing it wide if needed when space opens up.
Under Pochettino the centre backs would more be tasked with moving it quickly from one side to the other to find space wide. Of course Alderweireld went long in behind at times, Vertonghen (in particular) would play excellent low balls into central areas. But less of that wait and see, keep the ball centrally, dink it around a corner, threaten centrally then move wide if all central paths are closed.
(From memory and from someone far from a tactical expert)
Related to Raziel's previous point of overloading in some areas we're more happy to overload in the centre, trust Maddison, Bissouma and the inverted full backs to deal with the ball in congested areas before releasing it wide if needed when space opens up.
Under Pochettino the centre backs would more be tasked with moving it quickly from one side to the other to find space wide. Of course Alderweireld went long in behind at times, Vertonghen (in particular) would play excellent low balls into central areas. But less of that wait and see, keep the ball centrally, dink it around a corner, threaten centrally then move wide if all central paths are closed.
(From memory and from someone far from a tactical expert)
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
Don't worry we've got lots of experts. My Daughter and son in law work in film and stage and their daughter is an ASM and when they tell me how things work I tell them I don't want to know, it takes away the magic.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Dembele was basically a defensive midfielder, very similar to Bissouma’s current role, beat the press and pass it on type player. Defensively Dembele was outstanding.
I don’t really see the similarity with Maddison or his role?
He seems to be picking the ball up from our area and driving through to the attack. Wanyama/dier was more the defensive midfielder rather than dembele.