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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

156 pages?

As mentioned: Spurs v Wolves in 81. And other people fans also have stories to tell about Leppings Lane. Accident waiting to happen. I guess back in the 80's things were different. Easy to deflect blame and conspire to lie and cover up. Apparently a lot more easy than inspecting grounds and having a clear understanding of what constitutes safety and what is potentially dangerous and life threatening. The police with their panic caused chaos. Crowd control over crowd safety.
 
Also, on the subject of The Sun, I think (for very obvious reasons) they are an easy target to hit. They were used as a tool to aid the cover up and asked no questions because all they want to do is sell newspapers. Best everyone just fudges them off and ignore them. Different era, different people. Tabloid journalism won't change but I'd like to believe they wont ever attempt something like that again (although NOTW and one or two other recent stories suggests they'll never change).
 
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156 pages?

As mentioned: Spurs v Wolves in 81. And other people fans also have stories to tell about Leppings Lane. Accident waiting to happen. I guess back in the 80's things were different. Easy to deflect blame and conspire to lie and cover up. Apparently a lot more easy than inspecting grounds and having a clear understanding of what constitutes safety and what is potentially dangerous and life threatening. The police with their panic caused chaos. Crowd control over crowd safety.

That is the bottom line.
 
i honestly think everyone - esp the reports and the LFC fans - have missed the most important point

this WAS an accident waiting to happen for numerous reasons;

1. the conditions of stadia at the time
2. the attitude of the football authorities towards fans at the time (ie fencing and cages for segregation. "football special" trains)
3. the police attitude to football fans (as per 2.)
4. the fans attitude at the time (look at rioting and violence. look at the reaction of Liverpool fans prior to the game pushing to get in)

Clearly it would not have happened without the sequence of events;
Police cause fan delays - Fans cause caos and overcrowding - Police act instintively and make mistakes

Q. You have to ask - why were police stopping and searching fans on the way to the game?
A. Because they has a reason to

Q. Why did the police open the exit gate?
A. Because fans were acting in a manner that could danger - and therefore without the consideration for their own safety and that of their fellow supporters

Q. Why did the police think there was rioting in the pens?
A. Because precident had been set (but all clubs fans)


I honestly believe FOOTBALL is at fault for Hillsborough - and in that i include, fans, the authorities and football policing.

It could have happened at any time.

In some respects its a good thing it did happen (with the unfortunate loss of 96 lives and a great deal of hurts for many more people).

Liverpool fans will think they are the "victims" out of some stupid "football loyalty" because they happen to wear the same shirt, but football was the loser that day. And ultimately, both football, and society became a winner.

Re; Liverpools fans reaction to the reports - I can't see how they can describe it as anymore than a pyrrhic victory. But maybe you have to take your football hat off to understand that. The football hat does oft destroy any ability to think reasonably.
 
What's been really irritating about the Hillsborough is that they (Liverpool fans for the most part) previously used it as an excuse for everything, and mentioned it at the most unapproriate of times. Not cool.
Now that this is over with and the guillt and blame has been nicely delegated, we should really look towards showing some solidarity and empathy with other football fans, cause in the end we'll never really fight each other, just the higher authorities. Usually the FA, but in this instance both the police and the government. Up yours, coppers!
 
i honestly think everyone - esp the reports and the LFC fans - have missed the most important point

this WAS an accident waiting to happen for numerous reasons;

1. the conditions of stadia at the time
2. the attitude of the football authorities towards fans at the time (ie fencing and cages for segregation. "football special" trains)
3. the police attitude to football fans (as per 2.)
4. the fans attitude at the time (look at rioting and violence. look at the reaction of Liverpool fans prior to the game pushing to get in)

Clearly it would not have happened without the sequence of events;
Police cause fan delays - Fans cause caos and overcrowding - Police act instintively and make mistakes

Q. You have to ask - why were police stopping and searching fans on the way to the game?
A. Because they has a reason to

Q. Why did the police open the exit gate?
A. Because fans were acting in a manner that could danger - and therefore without the consideration for their own safety and that of their fellow supporters

Q. Why did the police think there was rioting in the pens?
A. Because precident had been set (but all clubs fans)


I honestly believe FOOTBALL is at fault for Hillsborough - and in that i include, fans, the authorities and football policing.

It could have happened at any time.

In some respects its a good thing it did happen (with the unfortunate loss of 96 lives and a great deal of hurts for many more people).

Liverpool fans will think they are the "victims" out of some stupid "football loyalty" because they happen to wear the same shirt, but football was the loser that day. And ultimately, both football, and society became a winner.

Re; Liverpools fans reaction to the reports - I can't see how they can describe it as anymore than a pyrrhic victory. But maybe you have to take your football hat off to understand that. The football hat does oft destroy any ability to think reasonably.


Explain?
 

certainly.

Because it led to a mass overhaul of;
the way football is policed
the way grounds are set up
the way ticketing is handled
attitudes of the public, the authorities and football fans - bringing about greater perspective and remembering they are spectators at a sporting event and human beings, not pond life/sub culture

Much in the same way that the plague was a necessary evil for London's population and WWII was for the class divide and social structure in the UK.

i appreciate none of these are nice things - im not saying they are - but they all acted as catalysts for positive change.
unfortunately human nature, and more often governance, lack's forethought and only does things in a reactionary manner
(or maybe prioritisation is the fault more than a lack of forethought - but thats for antoher time)
 
Yeah, thought that was the case. With regards to the congestion - surely it was a case of management of the gates rather than the number of turnstiles? After all, the police control box has access to cameras over the pens and can see when they are up to capacity. Comunication from the control box to ground level was slow and ensured that thw wrong gate was opened. The upper tier blocks and pens 1 and 4 were relatively quiet compared to the two central pens. Of course, fans arriving late exacerbated the over-crowding outside.

Agree. Lots of things added up to cause the tragedy, including poor stewarding and communication..

1. Theyreplaced a police officer familiar with the stadium and the problems a few weeks before hand. Duckenfield, the new guy, had no experience at Hillsborough.

2. Leppings Lane approach was used for all Liverpool fans, those in the end and those at the side stands. It was convenient for fan segregation but the bottleneck made congestion outside inevitable.

3. The small number of turnstiles, combined with 2, almost guaranteed congestion outside even if the fans turned up on time. It happened in 1981, 1987 and 1988 so clearly it was inadequate. There is no evidence the fans turned up late. It was the slow entrance to the stadium that was the problem.

4. It doesn't seem there was anyone inside the stadium trying to direct fans to the outer pens, unlike in 1981.

5. The police commanders inside and outside were not in communication. Both faced overcrowding. The one outside asked Duckenfield to open the exit gate to relieve pressure outside. Although he had a video view of the inner pens, he gave order to open the gate, even though this caused the problem in 1981. The experienced commander probably wouldn't have done.

6. In the past they did some preticketing of fans on the road to the stadium. In 1989 they didn't.

7. The only way out of the central pens was the tunnel and the gates onto the field. In 1981 there were gates to the side pens but they were now fenced off [Correction: it wasn't fenced off in 1981 and fans were free to move sideways]. In 1981 the police let fans onto the pitchside. In 1989 they assumed it was hooligan behaviour, which was not unreasonable given the times.

The thing that becomes so clear in retrospect was that it was an accident waiting to happen. If things had been different it could have happened in 1981 or 1987 or 1988. A lot of people made mistakes on the day. I don't think any were outrageous individual decisions - opening the exit gate was an attempt to relieve the crush outside, not a malicious act - but the lack of communication and lack of knowledge of previous incidents added up to a tragic result. After being removed from the FA Cup semi-final venue list after 1981, I cannot understand how Hillsborough was reinstated without major improvements. Whoever made that decision needs to be brought to account
 
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I think the reason GG has gone to brick has just been solved.

The site owner is the biggest fudging troll out of the lot. Should be ashamed of your comments you filthy snob.

You should have fudged off to Stratford and saved your forum from imploding. taco.
 
I think the reason GG has gone to brick has just been solved.

The site owner is the biggest fudging troll out of the lot. Should be ashamed of your comments you filthy snob.

You should have fudged off to Stratford and saved your forum from imploding. taco.

I am looking forward to never having to see you here again.
 
Ditto

Can't understand why a convicted wum who constatly slags off the site and its moderators keeps re-appearing from the cracks to have a pop at them
 
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certainly.

Because it led to a mass overhaul of;
the way football is policed
the way grounds are set up
the way ticketing is handled
attitudes of the public, the authorities and football fans - bringing about greater perspective and remembering they are spectators at a sporting event and human beings, not pond life/sub culture

Much in the same way that the plague was a necessary evil for London's population and WWII was for the class divide and social structure in the UK.

i appreciate none of these are nice things - im not saying they are - but they all acted as catalysts for positive change.
unfortunately human nature, and more often governance, lack's forethought and only does things in a reactionary manner
(or maybe prioritisation is the fault more than a lack of forethought - but thats for antoher time)

I guess you're trying to say the Hillsborough disaster lead to better and safer conditions at football matches and that the 96 didn't die in vain

I just think you need to be careful going onto a forum and saying stuff like 'in some respects it was a good thing' particularly when emotions on the subject are running high

Can I also just say that some of the comments by other posters in this forum have been nothing short of disgusting and I'm ashamed to call them fellow Spurs fans. And according to thse who know better than I, one is actually in charge of this site. Shameful
 
I think the reason GG has gone to brick has just been solved.

The site owner is the biggest fudging troll out of the lot. Should be ashamed of your comments you filthy snob.

You should have fudged off to Stratford and saved your forum from imploding. taco.

Insightful and welcome thoughts as always.

Out of interest, what's the difference between a class warrior and a snob? Is one any better than the other?
 
Oh look, the troll site owner wants an off topic argument.

Strictly speaking, the topic is about why everyone dislikes Liverpool. I find that it tends to be overpopulated with your ilk - those who hold a grudge about people who have made their lives successful. That's about as on-topic as it gets.
 
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Agree. Lots of things added up to cause the tragedy, including poor stewarding and communication..

1. Theyreplaced a police officer familiar with the stadium and the problems a few weeks before hand. Duckenfield, the new guy, had no experience at Hillsborough.

2. Leppings Lane approach was used for all Liverpool fans, those in the end and those at the side stands. It was convenient for fan segregation but the bottleneck made congestion outside inevitable.

3. The small number of turnstiles, combined with 2, almost guaranteed congestion outside even if the fans turned up on time. It happened in 1981, 1987 and 1988 so clearly it was inadequate. There is no evidence the fans turned up late. It was the slow entrance to the stadium that was the problem.

4. It doesn't seem there was anyone inside the stadium trying to direct fans to the outer pens, unlike in 1981.

5. The police commanders inside and outside were not in communication. Both faced overcrowding. The one outside asked Duckenfield to open the exit gate to relieve pressure outside. Although he had a video view of the inner pens, he gave order to open the gate, even though this caused the problem in 1981. The experienced commander probably wouldn't have done.

6. In the past they did some preticketing of fans on the road to the stadium. In 1989 they didn't.

7. The only way out of the central pens was the tunnel and the gates onto the field. In 1981 there were gates to the side pens but they were now fenced off. In 1981 the police let fans onto the pitchside. In 1989 they assumed it was hooligan behaviour, which was not unreasonable given the times.

The thing that becomes so clear in retrospect was that it was an accident waiting to happen. If things had been different it could have happened in 1981 or 1987 or 1988. A lot of people made mistakes on the day. I don't think any were outrageous individual decisions - opening the exit gate was an attempt to relieve the crush outside, not a malicious act - but the lack of communication and lack of knowledge of previous incidents added up to a tragic result. After being removed from the FA Cup semi-final venue list after 1981, I cannot understand how Hillsborough was reinstated without major improvements. Whoever made that decision needs to be brought to account

A very good / informative post.
 
I guess you're trying to say the Hillsborough disaster lead to better and safer conditions at football matches and that the 96 didn't die in vain

I just think you need to be careful going onto a forum and saying stuff like 'in some respects it was a good thing' particularly when emotions on the subject are running high

Can I also just say that some of the comments by other posters in this forum have been nothing short of disgusting and I'm ashamed to call them fellow Spurs fans. And according to thse who know better than I, one is actually in charge of this site. Shameful

not exactly no - i think the whole situation has become so convaluted that i have decided to take the emotional side out of the equation, so i don't pretend pass any commentary regarding whether the deaths were in vain or not. if anything, all non old age death is a matter that should be accompanied with sorrow.

emotions run high - that's life. if people cannot look at subjects in a non emotive manner as well as an emotive manner, then they are unlikely to get "the truth".

re; being careful. to a point, yes. if i were to go onto RAWK for example I would have likely expanded slightly on the point.
having posted on GG for something like 8 years, i think most people know my posting style and the position i would take.
that said, my word usage was thoroughly thought out and acheived part of its goal - which was to raise a question.

i also don't believe in censorship - censorship (whether via 3rd partly or personal) is merely a form of avoiding the truth.

regarding the views of others - it is important that those views exist (whether you agree with and find them deplorable), as that is the better way for society to understand and develop it's philosophy.

my personal view's on Liverpool and also Liverpool fans is generally not a positive one - but as i said, it don't believe Hillsborough was about Liverpool fans.
the circus since has become about Liverpool fans being victimised.
i beleive the circus since then has led to a situation with no winners (even Pyrrhic IMHO) and has become very self serving.

my experience of people from Liverpool is mixed - one point of note however is that all the positive ones have been Everton or Tranmere fans.
 
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