Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

[Jordinho]

Very true. I guess there will always be people who prefer to believe corrupt police officers, politicians and the likes of Kelvin McKenzie - even when it has been proven they lied. And when all else fails, use very poor humour. This place hasn't changed a bit!

Has anyone said they blame the Liverpool fans completely? That the police did nothing wrong?

This report has shown that a lot, if not all, of what happened AFTERWARDS were wrong, lies, cover ups etc. It doesn't change what actually happened. Several things happened that day to facilitate this. It shouldn't have been at Hillsborough in the first place, a lot of fans were running late, the police did a terrible job, but do you think that when the masses of fans outside the stadium saw the gates being opened they thought 'everyone take it easy, we'll get there eventually'? They most likely pushed even harder to get in and especially those without tickets. All I'm saying is that they played a part, just as the fans of any other club would have, had it been them.

 

[Modric THFC]

One thing that confuses me is the amount of passion people have for a subject that never has or never will affect them. Most of them are Liverpool fans but clearly some on here take this very personally. Maybe it's because you were there in 81 and believe it could easily have been you, or maybe it's because of the cover up stuff. But I just find it strange....a little bit like those who mourn the death of celebrities to an extreme level.

It was a tragedy and is very sad. But it happens every day. I'm just not sure why Hillsborough is the one major football event that gets people so emotional.

I was shocked watching it on the telly as an 8 year old. It definitely affected me at such a young age to see actual people dying on television.

 

[Returner]

One thing that confuses me is the amount of passion people have for a subject that never has or never will affect them. Most of them are Liverpool fans but clearly some on here take this very personally. Maybe it's because you were there in 81 and believe it could easily have been you, or maybe it's because of the cover up stuff. But I just find it strange....a little bit like those who mourn the death of celebrities to an extreme level.

It was a tragedy and is very sad. But it happens every day. I'm just not sure why Hillsborough is the one major football event that gets people so emotional.

I am only passionate about this subject because so many Spurs fans are being such pricks about it. It is embarrassing. If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't be commenting.

Quite why a thread about Liverpool is 158 pages long on a Spurs forum is a mystery.

Quite why so many Spurs fans on this forum hate Liverpool fans to such an extent that they feel comfortable writing what they did about Hillsborough here is another mystery. Maybe they live in other areas closer to Liverpool or in other countries and hate them for other reasons. I'm not sure, the arguments given though have been very poor.

I'm quite happy giving them the 'sign on' song at WHL or telling them to 'leave our fudging cars alone' when they leave early. That is football banter.

The last ten pages of this thread have been despicable and they involve the ramblings of fellow Spurs fans. I don't want people to read that and look at us thinking we are some real heartless c**ts like Chelsea, West Ham or Millwall. That's what I'm passionate about.

 

[Returner]

Has anyone said they blame the Liverpool fans completely? That the police did nothing wrong?

This report has shown that a lot, if not all, of what happened AFTERWARDS were wrong, lies, cover ups etc. It doesn't change what actually happened. Several things happened that day to facilitate this. It shouldn't have been at Hillsborough in the first place, a lot of fans were running late, the police did a terrible job, but do you think that when the masses of fans outside the stadium saw the gates being opened they thought 'everyone take it easy, we'll get there eventually'? They most likely pushed even harder to get in and especially those without tickets. All I'm saying is that they played a part, just as the fans of any other club would have, had it been them.

If you find the time, you should read the report.

 

[Jordinho]

I am only passionate about this subject because so many Spurs fans are being such pricks about it. It is embarrassing. If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't be commenting.

Quite why a thread about Liverpool is 158 pages long on a Spurs forum is a mystery.

Quite why so many Spurs fans on this forum hate Liverpool fans to such an extent that they feel comfortable writing what they did about Hillsborough here is another mystery. Maybe they live in other areas closer to Liverpool or in other countries and hate them for other reasons. I'm not sure, the arguments given though have been very poor.

I'm quite happy giving them the 'sign on' song at WHL or telling them to 'leave our fudging cars alone' when they leave early. That is football banter.

The last ten pages of this thread have been despicable and they involve the ramblings of fellow Spurs fans. I don't want people to read that and look at us thinking we are some real heartless c**ts like Chelsea, West Ham or Millwall. That's what I'm passionate about.

It saves us from having 158 different threads on all the stupid things they do, not including Hillsborough.

 

[tommysvr]

I was shocked watching it on the telly as an 8 year old. It definitely affected me at such a young age to see actual people dying on television.

Good point - didn't think of that. I was only born in 87, so everything I've seen is a recount or hearing about 'justice'

And returner: I agree, some of the things posted have been in very poor taste. I'd like to think that no one on here actually sees it as anything other than a tragedy and has complete sympathy for the families.

However, we all know in football that support sometimes means at all costs - Yid scum, songs about Munich, even in Sydney we had people singing 'you should have died in the bushfires' to Melbourne fans - not even related to football. Football fans often can't escape the emotion of a team to be humane.

 

[Returner]

It saves us from having 158 different threads on all the stupid things they do, not including Hillsborough.

:lol:

True. But I think it's fair to say there appears to be a number of Spurs fans who are letting their hatred for Liverpool and Scousers in general cloud the judgement on this one - even when it has been proved their fans did nothing wrong. Not one thing. But there you go.

 

[jts1882]

Has anyone said they blame the Liverpool fans completely? That the police did nothing wrong?

This report has shown that a lot, if not all, of what happened AFTERWARDS were wrong, lies, cover ups etc. It doesn't change what actually happened. Several things happened that day to facilitate this. It shouldn't have been at Hillsborough in the first place, a lot of fans were running late, the police did a terrible job, but do you think that when the masses of fans outside the stadium saw the gates being opened they thought 'everyone take it easy, we'll get there eventually'? They most likely pushed even harder to get in and especially those without tickets. All I'm saying is that they played a part, just as the fans of any other club would have, had it been them.

Who says they were late? The crowd outside was because the turnstiles were inadequate to handle the numbers.

Who says there were fans without tickets? The Taylor Report determined that the number of fans was about the same as the tickets sold, i.e. no significant numbers of fans without tickets.

Which leaves you with the fans rushed through the gate when they knew kick-off was minutes away. How can you seriously say that is reason to say they must take some responsibility for what happened. The gate was opened to let them in and they went in. That was the reason for opening the gate. What do you expect them to do, stop and say: "they've opened the gate to let us in, but let me wait a minute in this crush outside and consider if it a good idea to go in"? Its absurd to expect them to think that.

 

[jts1882]

If you find the time, you should read the report.

Just reading the report summary (p3-26) gives a good idea of the findings. The first chapter on the Spurs incident, the second on the incident itself, and the third on responsibilities give a good review of the facts of what happened. It takes maybe 5 minutes for those three and 20 minutes for the whole summary.

Link: http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf

 

[Jordinho]

Who says they were late? The crowd outside was because the turnstiles were inadequate to handle the numbers.

Who says there were fans without tickets? The Taylor Report determined that the number of fans was about the same as the tickets sold, i.e. no significant numbers of fans without tickets.

Which leaves you with the fans rushed through the gate when they knew kick-off was minutes away. How can you seriously say that is reason to say they must take some responsibility for what happened. The gate was opened to let them in and they went in. That was the reason for opening the gate. What do you expect them to do, stop and say: "they've opened the gate to let us in, but let me wait a minute in this crush outside and consider if it a good idea to go in"? Its absurd to expect them to think that.

There were unannounced roadworks that day, which caused delay to some.

I'm not saying they deliberately set out to crush their fellow fans, but nobody forced them forward either. That's how a crowd works, especially when they're desperate to get to where they're going.

 

[Baleforce]

Has anyone said they blame the Liverpool fans completely? That the police did nothing wrong?

This report has shown that a lot, if not all, of what happened AFTERWARDS were wrong, lies, cover ups etc. It doesn't change what actually happened. Several things happened that day to facilitate this. It shouldn't have been at Hillsborough in the first place, a lot of fans were running late, the police did a terrible job, but do you think that when the masses of fans outside the stadium saw the gates being opened they thought 'everyone take it easy, we'll get there eventually'? They most likely pushed even harder to get in and especially those without tickets. All I'm saying is that they played a part, just as the fans of any other club would have, had it been them.

i agree with this, the fact that they were behaving like football (notice i said football and not liverpool) fans still contributed

yes it was a police clusterfudge but had it been a load of cub scouts or a group of pensioners the outcome would not have been the same

also the police's concerns about potential football fan behaviour must have shaped their response, any football fan who had misbehaved in the past should have their share of guilt, lets not forget why the pens were erected in the first place

the cover up is obviously disgraceful and needs to be investigated further but to lay the 96 deaths solely at the door of the unfortunate police officers on duty that day isn't right either

 

[Jordinho]

I'm not saying they played a part because they're Liverpool fans, but because they were there.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Quite embarrassing this thread

Yep, a load of people with a blatant chip on their shoulder about scousers/Liverpool fans don't believe the masses of evidence that says the fans were nothing to do with? What a surprise! It is like listening to a BNP member and expecting a neutral view on black people!

Best comment was the one saying the case was unproven against... *the fans!* LOL! What fudging case? A lot of wink, wink, nudge, nudge... isn't a case! ffs, read the evidence in Taylor. The fans were not late, they weren't without tickets, they weren't drunk and they didn't charge the gates. It is all there. And the police knew it which is why they shat themselves in such an epic way. If there was any case against the fans, then why did the police behave the way they did? It was epic smearing and covering up and these were not the actions of people who were confident that they weren't to blame.

 

[Returner]

i agree with this, the fact that they were behaving like football (notice i said football and not liverpool) fans still contributed

yes it was a police clusterfudge but had it been a load of cub scouts or a group of pensioners the outcome would not have been the same

also the police's concerns about potential football fan behaviour must have shaped their response, any football fan who had misbehaved in the past should have their share of guilt, lets not forget why the pens were erected in the first place

the cover up is obviously disgraceful and needs to be investigated further but to lay the 96 deaths solely at the door of the unfortunate police officers on duty that day isn't right either

Nobody is blaming the police officers on duty. 116 of the 164 statements were doctored. They criticised their superiors for lack of direction and leadership as it all went wrong. Peter Wright, Paul Middup, David Duckenfield and Dr Stefan Popper were responsible for the fudge up and the cover up.

If you don't want to read the full report there is quite a good summary of their mistakes here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...med-shamed--police-chiefs-caused-tragedy.html

You need to scroll down to the bit in blue...

 

[jts1882]

There were unannounced roadworks that day, which caused delay to some.

I'm not saying they deliberately set out to crush their fellow fans, but nobody forced them forward either. That's how a crowd works, especially when they're desperate to get to where they're going.

You are clutching at straws.

The roadworks haven't been given as a significant factor of the crush outside in either report (Taylor or this one). Does it explain what happened in 1981 or 1987 or 1988 as well?

The gate was opened to relieve the crush outside. They were expected to go in and probably told to by the people opening the gate. To refuse to move and relieve the crush outside would have been the irresponsible action. You can't hold them responsible for the unintended consequences of someone else's decision.

If someone falls under a train at a crowded tube station do you blame all the people on the station for not assessing the danger correctly (falling under a train is much more likely that getting traumatic asphyxiation at a football match)? Do you blame the people coming down the escalator for not anticipating the crush and potential falling under a train? Do you blame everyone using the escalators rather than the stairs for getting into a position where they can't reverse their direction of travel? If you answer, yes to these questions you can claim consistency in blaming the Liverpool supporters.

 

[Returner]

Yep, a load of people with a blatant chip on their shoulder about scousers/Liverpool fans don't believe the masses of evidence that says the fans were nothing to do with? What a surprise! It is like listening to a BNP member and expecting a neutral view on black people!

Best comment was the one saying the case was unproven against... *the fans!* LOL! What fudging case? A lot of wink, wink, nudge, nudge... isn't a case! ffs, read the evidence in Taylor. The fans were not late, they weren't without tickets, they weren't drunk and they didn't charge the gates. It is all there. And the police knew it which is why they shat themselves in such an epic way. If there was any case against the fans, then why did the police behave the way they did? It was epic smearing and covering up and these were not the actions of people who were confident that they weren't to blame.

That's it in a nutshell, yet some still want to blame them!

Like you say, the cover up was of such epic proportions it kind of clears the fans on its own. If they had played any part the police would have used that. The fact is, it was all lies, every single bit.

 

[NW5pur]

I'm not saying they played a part because they're Liverpool fans, but because they were there.

where were they supposed to be? you had 24k fans trying to squeeze through 23 turnstiles, which is ‎completely inadequate and resulted in the crush outside the ground

 

[Returner]

where were they supposed to be? you had 24k fans trying to squeeze through 23 turnstiles, which is ‎completely inadequate and resulted in the crush outside the ground

Exactly. To make matters worse, the same thing happened in 81 and 88 and Hillsborough was supposed to be taken off the list of potential semi-final venues. The F.A fudged up too. Our saving grace was the experience of the chief superintendent who knew Hillsborough inside out and dealt with the problem efficiently.

David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day, was new and didn't have a clue what he was doing. He ordered that they open the gate which led directly to the already full centre pens.

 

[Jordinho]

You are clutching at straws.

The roadworks haven't been given as a significant factor of the crush outside in either report (Taylor or this one). Does it explain what happened in 1981 or 1987 or 1988 as well?

The gate was opened to relieve the crush outside. They were expected to go in and probably told to by the people opening the gate. To refuse to move and relieve the crush outside would have been the irresponsible action. You can't hold them responsible for the unintended consequences of someone else's decision.

If someone falls under a train at a crowded tube station do you blame all the people on the station for not assessing the danger correctly (falling under a train is much more likely that getting traumatic asphyxiation at a football match)? Do you blame the people coming down the escalator for not anticipating the crush and potential falling under a train? Do you blame everyone using the escalators rather than the stairs for getting into a position where they can't reverse their direction of travel? If you answer, yes to these questions you can claim consistency in blaming the Liverpool supporters.

There were probably significant numbers running late from the pub as well. Not saying they should have known about this ahead of the game, but if you show up less than 30 minutes from kickoff you should expect a queue.

I'm not saying they caused it or are solely to blame, but they were there and the actions from them as a group played a part. Many were probably just dragged along by the crowd, while others actively pushed to get forward.

Any individuals pushing forward to get on the incoming train should take some of the blame.

 

[Jordinho]

where were they supposed to be? you had 24k fans trying to squeeze through 23 turnstiles, which is ‎completely inadequate and resulted in the crush outside the ground

Show up earlier or just wait the time it takes to get in. Not trying to be insensitive or anything, but I don't get why they should be absolved from having played any part in this? And again I stress that this (for me) has nothing to do with them being Liverpool. It could just as easily have happened if the two sets of fans had switched ends.

But this isn't going anywhere, so I'll leave it here.