Tottenham vs Scum COC OMT

[alekaras]

Provided we are actually playing better than our opponents, vs. AVB style false domination where we have lots of possession but never really have the opponent on the rack.

Fact is, we very rarely hammer anyone, that means the we are outplaying opponents is very rarely reflected in score. Hence not sure how you see the results "correcting" themselves over time.

Well, we actually are playing better than our opponents, if you have watched any of the games. The only exception was probably Leicester, where, at worst, we played as well as them.

 

[alekaras]

I'm not expecting Poch to be here when we actually start competing: we will hopefully start spending whatever money we scrap up from the stadium around 2022, or past it, and Poch being here past his five year contract is unlikely unless he wins something. (managers generally don't last that long without winning something or having some tangible achievements to their name)

We won't be 'dominating' anything in the seasons to come: if you expect us to do so after seeing the short of 50-50 games we've played this season, you'd be scarily misinformed at best.

And in this instance, what we stand for is simply this: we are Tottenham Hotspur, we are a cup side, and our very dearest rivals are Ar5ena1. When a cup game at home against Ar5ena1 comes around, we give it all, we don't throw the game.

Also, if you share so many of the same wants that I have, why on Earth are you so opposed to us spending more to achieve those aims?!?

I don't want us to be a cup side. I want us to be a PL title-contending side. I couldn't give a rat's arse if we never won a cup again as long as we were in the mix for the title every year and won it once in a while. And I am not opposed to spending to achieve these aims. But with a new stadium to fund (I mean, how many times do we have to repeat this?!) and with mega-millionaire clubs being able to outspend us for whatever player they want (see Martial) the only way to get to the top is by developing our own players, being shrewd with our transfers, building the additional revenue from the new stadium and NFL deal, and not running ourselves to the ground financially. I know it takes longer to achieve success this way, but unless you have any other ideas as to how we can get there sooner, then for your own sanity I would urge patience and support for the vision for the future the club has set.

I also urge we wait until the end of the season and see what this team actually achieves. If Poch manages to improve us every season as it looks like he has from last season to this one, I see no reason why he shouldn't get another 5-year contract, and another, and another. No reason why he can't be our SAF (wasn't it Klinsman that said he has that potential?). Let's give things some time, shall we?

 

[Raziel]

.. in this instance, what we stand for is simply this: we are Tottenham Hotspur, we are a cup side, and our very dearest rivals are Ar5ena1. When a cup game at home against Ar5ena1 comes around, we give it all, we don't throw the game.

Nothing more needs to be said ..

 

[DubaiSpur]

I don't want us to be a cup side. I want us to be a PL title-contending side. I couldn't give a rat's arse if we never won a cup again as long as we were in the mix for the title every year and won it once in a while. And I am not opposed to spending to achieve these aims. But with a new stadium to fund (I mean, how many times do we have to repeat this?!) and with mega-millionaire clubs being able to outspend us for whatever player they want (see Martial) the only way to get to the top is by developing our own players, being shrewd with our transfers, building the additional revenue from the new stadium and NFL deal, and not running ourselves to the ground financially. I know it takes longer to achieve success this way, but unless you have any other ideas as to how we can get there sooner, then for your own sanity I would urge patience and support for the vision for the future the club has set.

I also urge we wait until the end of the season and see what this team actually achieves. If Poch manages to improve us every season as it looks like he has from last season to this one, I see no reason why he shouldn't get another 5-year contract, and another, and another. No reason why he can't be our SAF (wasn't it Klinsman that said he has that potential?). Let's give things some time, shall we?

We are a cup side. I have wanted us not to be one for most of the 18-odd years I've been supporting this club, but you...we, cannot run away from our nature. And as such, the cups are where we can win the trophies that will put us back on the path to challenging the top sides in this country. Our dreams about titles don't matter until we have the spending heft to pursue them: until then, throwing away the chance to compete for a cup we can win against our arch-rivals is a stupid, stupid decision.

As for your views on spending, I disagree, but we both know that already. The key is targeted spending, spending that extra bit in crucial times to support the manager in charge. But again, we both know our stances on this.

And Poch could improve us year on year, but still end up 5th and without a trophy to his name come the end of his contract: if that is the scenario (not saying it will be, but if it is), there is no reason to keep him on whatsoever. Forget SAF, with that sort of general gentle bumping around the glass ceiling without ever breaching it, he'd be the slightly more forward-thinking David Moyes of Everton fame.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Nothing more needs to be said ..

Damn right.

 

[alekaras]

And then you miss the point of almost everyone (who is annoyed at Poch in this thread)

- prioritization/rotation is not the problem
- it's what you prioritize
- And for a lot of Spurs fans, if as a manager of this club, you choose to put a lower priority on a Cup game against the Scum at WHL, you are way off base, and just wrong.

Add the fact (in hindsight) that the game was eminently winnable (honestly, one fudgeing choice, Lloris in goal would have won that games for us), they won, and fudgeed up our house (and won't get charged is just rubbing our face in it.

I'm afraid that if the club always prioritized what the fans want, we'd be in a terrible state right now. We'd have spent ourselves to financial oblivion and been the next Leeds. Sometimes the choices that need to be made are not popular with the fans, who all want success here and now. That doesn't happen unless you have an Abramovich or Mansour as the owner. And given that none of us want such an owner, there is only one alternative: suffer some mediocre seasons for a few years to build up the infrastructure and the squad to reap the benefits later. If there is one thing that I fault Levy is that he didn't take this approach earlier. He seems to have gotten it right now, but all the previous years' hiccups are not forgotten and fans feel that by now we should be the finished article. So be it. If it makes you feel better to vent this way, by all means. But as I said to Dubai, it will only cause you ulcers and emotional grief.

 

[billyiddo]

For someone I consider a level headed poster you aren't half over egging this Dubai - 'throwing the game' ? What utter drivel, we fielded a team which matched it's opponents for the entirety of the game both in terms of on field contribution and in terms of desire/effort.

 

[DubaiSpur]

For someone I consider a level headed poster you aren't half over egging this Dubai - 'throwing the game' ? What utter drivel, we fielded a team which matched it's opponents for the entirety of the game both in terms of on field contribution and in terms of desire/effort.

And we lost. Because we completely voluntarily put out our second string. Against an Arsenal second string that is clearly better than ours. And because Poch prioritized other competitions over this one, and other games over this one.

I'm really struggling to think of a better descriptor. A game easily within our grasp, and we decided it wasn't worth it.

 

[alekaras]

We are a cup side. I have wanted us not to be one for most of the 18-odd years I've been supporting this club, but you...we, cannot run away from our nature. And as such, the cups are where we can win the trophies that will put us back on the path to challenging the top sides in this country. Our dreams about titles don't matter until we have the spending heft to pursue them: until then, throwing away the chance to compete for a cup we can win against our arch-rivals is a stupid, stupid decision.

As for your views on spending, I disagree, but we both know that already. The key is targeted spending, spending that extra bit in crucial times to support the manager in charge. But again, we both know our stances on this.

And Poch could improve us year on year, but still end up 5th and without a trophy to his name come the end of his contract: if that is the scenario (not saying it will be, but if it is), there is no reason to keep him on whatsoever. Forget SAF, with that sort of general gentle bumping around the glass ceiling without ever breaching it, he'd be the slightly more forward-thinking David Moyes of Everton fame.

The difference between us and Everton is that we will have much more financial clout than they ever could dream of. Comparing Everton to where we are now, you're right. But we all know that in a few years time we'll be able to spend more on players and their salaries, something that Moyes never had. So assuming Poch is slightly more forward-thinking than Moyes, with the added finances I think we'll be getting pretty far with him. TBH I was not a Poch fan and I'm still frustrated by some of his moves, but I see him as the best person for the job right now and hopefully he will grow into it more and more making him the best person for the job in the future too.

And just because we are cup side, doesn't mean we have to stick with that mentality forever. Time to shed it and if it means not winning any cups for a while to get there, I'm good with that.

 

[Baleforce]

we shouldn't put too much thought into individual results, look at the bigger picture, the club is progressing at reasonable pace considering our pragmatic approach

 

[billyiddo]

And we lost. Because we completely voluntarily put out our second string. Against an Ar5ena1 second string that is clearly better than ours. And Poch prioritized other competitions over this one, and other games over this one.

I'm really struggling to think of a better descriptor. A game easily within our grasp, and we decided it wasn't worth it.

So any time we don't field our strongest available side we're effectively throwing the game? That's what it sounds like you're saying there tbh

And no, Arsenals second string aren't clearly better than ours, not judging by last night anyway, we matched them all over the pitch and had we got the second instead of them no one would be saying it was underserved.

 

[alekaras]

If there was one Poch decision in this match that I'm puzzled with, it was picking Dier. I mean, if we're going with second string players, presumably to have a rested first team for Saturday, why play Dier (who has played every minute this season) and not someone else? He's the one irreplaceable player right now and if Saturday's match was more important, maybe he should have been rested. Unless the coach and player felt playing him yesterday wouldn't impact him for Saturday.

 

[Modric THFC]

we shouldn't put too much thought into individual results, look at the bigger picture, the club is progressing at reasonable pace considering our pragmatic approach

It isnt about individual results.
Its about Poch not getting what this game means to the people attending it.

And in general it's Poch's inability to deal with fixture congestion effectively anytime we encounter it.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The difference between us and Everton is that we will have much more financial clout than they ever could dream of. Comparing Everton to where we are now, you're right. But we all know that in a few years time we'll be able to spend more on players and their salaries, something that Moyes never had. So assuming Poch is slightly more forward-thinking than Moyes, with the added finances I think we'll be getting pretty far with him. TBH I was not a Poch fan and I'm still frustrated by some of his moves, but I see him as the best person for the job right now and hopefully he will grow into it more and more making him the best person for the job in the future too.

And just because we are cup side, doesn't mean we have to stick with that mentality forever. Time to shed it and if it means not winning any cups for a while to get there, I'm good with that.

Agreed, in a few years (more like 6-7 at the least, but you no doubt get the point), the resources available to a Spurs manager will dwarf those that were available to Moyes when he was in charge of Everton. However...Poch's contract only lasts until 2019, which (if all goes well) will see us having moved into the stadium and played our first game there. If he continues sedately drifting around 5th/6th and throwing away cup competitions (an unpleasant surprise, given how much we loved that CC run last year), he will have no defense when it comes to the question 'are you the right man to give all those resources to?'

Let's face it, at that stage, we could afford to get a better manager, with a better trophy record and just better managerial skills all-round. It's the much the same as the situation with Timmeh at the end of 2013/2014 - yes, he did some good things with the youth, and did decently in the league, but his record was non-existent and a better manager was available, so we let him go. Same thing with Poch, if (If, and it's a big 'if') he continues to make 'progress' without really achieving anything: come the end of his contract, there will just be many better managers out there if we're feeling ambitious.

And we are a cup side, and have been for the past century, if not more. Yes, we can shed that mentality at some stage. But given the enormity of the task, starting in a season where the cups are our only hope of achieving something isn't smart - quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[billyiddo]

Yeah we're historically a cup side, but what is Poch going to get judged on come the end of the season? Not many gave a fudge about reaching the final last season when it looked like we were possibly going to finish 6th/7th - it was all moans and groans until we pulled 5th out of the bag.

Ultimately the League Cup is our 4th priority and as much as I'd like us to win it (or anything for that matter) it will always lose out to the other competitions (until we're at the quarters/semi stage)

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

If there was one Poch decision in this match that I'm puzzled with, it was picking Dier. I mean, if we're going with second string players, presumably to have a rested first team for Saturday, why play Dier (who has played every minute this season) and not someone else? He's the one irreplaceable player right now and if Saturday's match was more important, maybe he should have been rested. Unless the coach and player felt playing him yesterday wouldn't impact him for Saturday.

I guess Mason, Bentaleb, Dembele and to a lesser extent Pritchard happened.

 

[Rorschach]

I think this argument has gone off on a few tangents but to me the question is a simple one. Do you play your strongest team versus Arsenal whatever the competition and IMO the answer is always yes. Is the CC more or less importation than other competitions? I don't care. I want to beat them pure and simple.

 

[parklane1]

I do not go along with those who are saying Poch set out to throw a game ( that was "rent a quote who did that), but he made a difficult job harder by playing a weakened side and that is what I object too. We are not going to make the top four this season ( at least imo we are not) but we could win a trophy with this side and we blew it last night ( and I would say the same no matter who we played). IF he decides to play weakened sides in the remaining two trophys we could win then I will start to think its about time to find something else to do with my money and time on match days.

And I take no pleasure in saying that as Spurs have been a major part of my life for over 50 years.

 

[Baleforce]

I think this argument has gone off on a few tangents but to me the question is a simple one. Do you play your strongest team versus Ar5ena1 whatever the competition and IMO the answer is always yes. Is the CC more or less importation than other competitions? I don't care. I want to beat them pure and simple.

My answer would be no, you play the fixture, the approach to the third round of the league cup should be the same whether you are playing arsenal or accrington.

 

[Rorschach]

My answer would be no, you play the fixture, the approach to the third round of the league cup should be the same whether you are playing Ar5ena1 or accrington.

I could not disagree more with this statement.