Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
I wonder if they had that thought when signed Mari and Willian in Artetas second window
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Timo Werner
- Thread starter Denmark Spur
- Start date
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Who would at the kind of cost involved for him?
What money we have to spend probably will get spent more or less. Hopefully on players we think will do more to close the gap. But our squad is in need of enough upgrades that we can't afford gap closing difference makers in every position.
He's an upgrade on Gil. Probably seen by Ange as a better choice than Solomon (we've barely seen him so difficult to judge). We need players like him too.
All season the consensus has been that our strongest 11 is actually rather good, but we lack depth. With Werner that's 1-2 roles that's no longer the case for. That makes a difference.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
More relevant comparison for me would be Trossard. Iirc when he was linked with us and them quite a few fans of both clubs didn't want him, not good enough. And in the end he wasn't the player that pushed them to win the league, but he was a part in getting them really close.
Similar has been the case for most teams at or near the top of the table over the years, arguably with the possible exception of some of the City teams.
It's about clever signings and acquiring players that fit the system. Over the years I'd say the majority of clubs most successful signings have been more 'low key' than the real blockbuster big money big name signings....
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Strong agree.
We have quite a few players in the squad that are easily "good enough" to be squad players for where we are. And some of them good enough to be squad players for where we want to be next season. But they don't fit the system well enough so it doesn't really matter that they are "good enough" as players, they can't perform to that level on the roles we actually have in our system.
I think we will look to make 1-2 bigger profile, hopefully bigger impact signings this summer. I hope we do. But even if all we did this summer was make 5-6 "Werner type" signings. Good enough squad players that fit the system really well I think that would make us significantly better next season. (This is a hypothetical, I'm not suggesting we do this).
Werner is both good enough and a very good fit for the system. Not even that the club will think that he is a good fit, he is, it's known.
He doesn't even have to settle in, he's already here. In a summer where we look likely to make quite a few changes that's a nice little bonus too.
No, but there are other areas that the money will be spent in to close the gap. We're not going to get it all done in one window, plus we have young players coming through in the next year or two that will hopefully take the place of the likes of Werner. Of course there are no guarantees with young players.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
This is of course true. But I still think it's a good comparison. Filling a squad role that needs filling with a PL proven player for limited money. Spend real money on other roles. A smart, solid, but not exactly spectacular signing.
I think it will end up comparing better to Trossard than Willian, but that may just be my optimism.
I do think we're building the right way, so far at least. Let's see what the rest of the window brings.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
I don’t disagree about him being a better fit. He is.
It’s purely that people quickly forget that teams need building.
in Arteta second season they brought in Mari, Willian and Cedric Soares… all cheap and none were any good. But over time he has got rid of them and actually changed his whole team
Bishop
John Lacy
Players who perform those role for title winners and title challengers tend to be players who lack in overall quality but have a high quality attribute (usually finishing) that can be very useful in key stages of the season.
Ttossard is a great example of that, he's no great creative wide man. He's not a great key passer, but hes a very good finisher, arguably the best finisher at Arsenal. So he gets goals, that's what he adds in those key moments. If you think back to these kind of players that what they typically add. We'll see with Werner but that's not an attribute he's good at.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
What you're describing seems to be lower quality squad fillers that can do a half decent job as you wait for the next window/season to spend on better players. Signed because you need numbers. Not sure if that's an accurate description of what you were saying.
I don't think that's where we are with our squad building and I don't think that's the player Werner is. I think we're ahead of where Arsenal were at that point, or where you described them. I think Werner is good enough to occupy that squad role. But someone not good enough that will be moved on because he's not good enough.
He may be moved on because we end up with someone even better from the Academy or from an additional signing.
Again, I may be too optimistic.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
No
I’m saying the squad needs time
You don’t build it in one window
They didn’t sign all the crap in their early windows thinking they would fail because they were cheap .. and we aren’t doing that either
But Ange will need 6 windows to get his team because he needs players in and more importantly, players out
It was more about the original reference to Arsenal that someone made. And Werner is a my ch much better fit than the players they signed at that time
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Disagree on the principle that the high quality attribute should usually be finishing.Players who perform those role for title winners and title challengers tend to be players who lack in overall quality but have a high quality attribute (usually finishing) that can be very useful in key stages of the season.
Ttossard is a great example of that, he's no great creative wide man. He's not a great key passer, but hes a very good finisher, arguably the best finisher at Arsenal. So he gets goals, that's what he adds in those key moments. If you think back to these kind of players that what they typically add. We'll see with Werner but that's not an attribute he's good at.
I agree that those players will usually lack one or two attributes to be a really top player. Or lack on overall quality, but have some standout attributes.
What those attributes should be depends on the role they play in the team.
Obviously better finishing is better in any role apart from goalkeeper. But I don't think they key attributes for our wide players to have to fit the system is finishing. One vs one ability, speed, link up play, creativity and crossing/end product passing are the key attributes for our wide players imo.
Finishing for me is more the "bonus", something I would hope a newly signed starting wide player would have to be good enough overall to be a starter.
A great finisher, poor/average at the rest kind of player for that role would be a poor fit to the role and system. Not a useful squad player. Werner has shown the second half of this season exactly why he's a good fit to the system.
I also think his poor finishing gets somewhat overstated.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I think the aim for this window should be to continue the squad build and end up with a squad that can deliver comfortably a top 4 finish next season. Ideally at least be in the conversation for a title challenge half way through the season. If it takes longer so be it as long as there's progress, be that should be the aim.
Imo we needed to "fix" 6-7 squad roles for that to be the case with 2 (or ideally 3) of those being close to or at a first choice player level. May not all have to be new signings depending on what happens with Bergvall/academy lads and what Ange actually thinks about a couple of the players in the squad and what they can do next season. But should be better than last season.
1 down, 5-6 to go, perhaps slightly less.
Succeed at that and the Trossard comparison will be more apt than the Willian/Mari one.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
We can sign amazing players but unless gaps are filled the weakness will still be there
Werner fills a weakness but one where we had options at least
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Agree that gaps need to be filled.
Think he fills a rather important one. Unless Solomon was going to become one I don't think our options there were better than in other areas.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Correct me if I’m wrong but Werner’s approach play stats were pretty good?
Obviously the finishing monkey is a thing. But he can only get better there! Rush of blood. Nerves. Knowing everyone is saying he misses too many goals… He is better - technically - that his finishing. So it’s in his head and something the coaches (and sports psychologists) can work on. So during those 1-1 moments on goal he’s a focused assassin. IF he can feel at home in front of goal he could be a fantastic signing.
Obviously the finishing monkey is a thing. But he can only get better there! Rush of blood. Nerves. Knowing everyone is saying he misses too many goals… He is better - technically - that his finishing. So it’s in his head and something the coaches (and sports psychologists) can work on. So during those 1-1 moments on goal he’s a focused assassin. IF he can feel at home in front of goal he could be a fantastic signing.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
But we had options
Gil
Son
Solomon
Werner
Richarlison
We don’t at CF, or full back
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Depends what you mean by approach play stats. I think approach play is too complex to be boiled down to a stat or two.
He has really good stats on carries, progressive carries, passes and crosses into the box, assists, expected assists. Passing stats are fine, but doesn't tell us much. Dribbling stats aren't that impressive, but I think that's because he often doesn't dribble past players, just gets beyond them and puts a ball in. Dribbling stats are finicky.
From what we've seen he's a real threat one vs one out wide. Good at running in behind. Link up/combination play is fine, but not spectacular. Not great at holding up the ball/retaining possession under pressure, but definitely OK at it.
Finishing is the one big issue that essentially means he's not a top player. I think he's alright at it. I doubt we'll see real improvements there, but may see streaks of better goalscoring. A bonus point is that he's actually quite good at getting into goalscoring opportunities so that somewhat offsets his finishing.
We are capable of creating chances that are more about being in the right spot for the finisher than about being a great finisher so that could potentially help him next season.
His xG stats are interesting. "Only" around 10 goals down on his xG across his career (league games I think). But some relatively big swings, from +6, +5 both at RB, - 6 and - 7 at RB and one of his Chelsea seasons.
Haven't seen anyone analysing that, but my gut feeling is that he's better with instinct finishes and worse when he has time to think.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
My thinking is that Gil is pretty much gone, and he's not a good fit. Solomon is the big unknown. If Ange rates him for next season and wants him here the Werner signing makes less sense.
Son surely is first choice there?
Richarlison is about as good a fit to the LW role as Emerson is to the RB role. Slightly worse fit imo than Son to the striker role or Davies to the LB role.
Like for other roles the problem wasn't that we didn't have options. The problem was that we didn't have options that fit the system and role. Werner does. It's a problem fixed.
And I think the Werner signing probably answers the questions on Solomon. Ange wants Werner more than he wants Solomon.