Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wow, TSF absolutely nails it, doesn't he?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It says it's not Sherwood's fault, but if he manouvered himself into the position he is in and contributed to the sacking of the previous guy, it kinda is.

I don't think that there has been anything substantiated that has said he did.

AVBs departure appears to have come after a series of meetings between him Levy and Baldini where there was a disagreement over the future of the first team.

By all accounts AVB's departure was by mutual consent in the end and that he wanted out as much as Levy and Baldini thought his time was up.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wow, TSF absolutely nails it, doesn't he?

well he is a Spurs fan

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think that there has been anything substantiated that has said he did.

AVBs departure appears to have come after a series of meetings between him Levy and Baldini where there was a disagreement over the future of the first team.

By all accounts AVB's departure was by mutual consent in the end and that he wanted out as much as Levy and Baldini thought his time was up.

Yeeeeeeees there's nothing substantiated but we can take it from pretty reliable sources (e.g. Castles) that AVB thought Sherwood was a nuisance and under mining him.

Plus, if we look at it from a purely logical perspective, do we assume Sherwood made AVB's job easier, or harder? It will take a stretch to imagine he made the job easier.

Sherwood got his shot. I agree with Scara in that he's realising it's harder than he thought it would be. Of course AVB wanted out - when he has people in the club pulling in different directions to himself it wouldn't surprise me one bit and why should it?

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really do chuckle at the muuddled characterisations of Sherwood.

On the one hand, he's Mike Bassett, an intemperate caveman from a bygone era, losing the head all the time and throwing his gillet around.

On the other hand, he's a Machiavellian genius, scheming against uber-Alpha AVB, and running rings around Daniel "Cambridge First" Levy himself, a man regarded as tougher and more politically astute than Augusto Pinochet.

So, which is it? Is he Fredo or Michael?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yeeeeeeees there's nothing substantiated but we can take it from pretty reliable sources (e.g. Castles) that AVB thought Sherwood was a nuisance and under mining him.

Plus, if we look at it from a purely logical perspective, do we assume Sherwood made AVB's job easier, or harder? It will take a stretch to imagine he made the job easier.

Sherwood got his shot. I agree with Scara in that he's realising it's harder than he thought it would be. Of course AVB wanted out - when he has people in the club pulling in different directions to himself it wouldn't surprise me one bit and why should it?

My understanding is that Sherwood and AVB had disagreements over the number of opportunities that youth players were getting in the first team.

That's Sherwood's right as development coach to raise it if he sees it as an issue and it was AVB prerogative to choose who he wants.

I've never worked in a company where people didn't have different opinions or occasional disagreements. As long as everyone behaves professionally and sticks to collective decisions, I don't see what the problem is. I really don't understand why people think football clubs should be different.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

My understanding is that Sherwood and AVB had disagreements over the number of opportunities that youth players were getting in the first team.

That's Sherwood's right as development coach to raise it if he sees it as an issue and it was AVB prerogative to choose who he wants.

I've never worked in a company where people didn't have different opinions or occasional disagreements. As long as everyone behaves professionally and sticks to collective decisions, I don't see what the problem is. I really don't understand why people think football clubs should be different.

Because a football club is different. It isn't a business, it's a sporting entity. What Man United know very well is that a powerful manager can reap benefits. Players respect it. They buy into the methods and can plan for the future because they know that no matter what they do, their boss will always be more powerful than them.

A youth coach saying that his boys should get more opportunities is fine. A youth coach getting in Levy's ear about how AVB promised to work with the players he was given only to demand high cost ones, or furthering the idea that his tactics are not the best way to use the players, or anything else that he has potentially talked about, it holds the club back. Players will be less inclined to listen, they know the boss can be got at and can get their way if his power is challenged, and long term planning therefore goes out of the window.

So many 'if I did that in my business' examples are really tiresome because football is nothing like an office. There's a completely different dynamic at play.

I am absolutely certain Sherwoos contributed to AVB's demise. That he was seen as an antidote pretty much confirm it, otherwise why else is Levy trusting him? It's admirable to go along with the 'we've not had any substantiated facts' line but it's near enough blindingly obvious what happened. Our club had too many people pulling in different directions rather than establishing power with one man, who just over a year previously we decided knew enough about how to build a football club with his ideas that we sacked the man who got us our most consistent Prem finishes. Joke decision making.

For what it's worth I think AVB would have been happy to play the youth, and have them fill out the squad. He would have preferred to have a smaller number of top quality players rather than a load of pretty good ones. He didn't rotate much at Porto because his philosophy built rest into games there, and if we could have delivered him say 3 top players to replace Bale rather than 7, for the same money, he would have done better. Sherwood obviously thought it would be easy to pick up the reigns but he's actually done a really average job.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really do chuckle at the muuddled characterisations of Sherwood.

On the one hand, he's Mike Bassett, an intemperate caveman from a bygone era, losing the head all the time and throwing his gillet around.

On the other hand, he's a Machiavellian genius, scheming against uber-Alpha AVB, and running rings around Daniel "Cambridge First" Levy himself, a man regarded as tougher and more politically astute than Augusto Pinochet.

So, which is it? Is he Fredo or Michael?

I don't think he's a Basset on football matters at all, but I do think he is extremely politically savvy. The way he got the contract from Levy that he wanted, he played a blinder. It was very impressive.

 

[Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Ever thought TSF is not actually a footballer at all and it is all made up for views and sales?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Because a football club is different. It isn't a business, it's a sporting entity. What Man United know very well is that a powerful manager can reap benefits. Players respect it. They buy into the methods and can plan for the future because they know that no matter what they do, their boss will always be more powerful than them.

A youth coach saying that his boys should get more opportunities is fine. A youth coach getting in Levy's ear about how AVB promised to work with the players he was given only to demand high cost ones, or furthering the idea that his tactics are not the best way to use the players, or anything else that he has potentially talked about, it holds the club back. Players will be less inclined to listen, they know the boss can be got at and can get their way if his power is challenged, and long term planning therefore goes out of the window.

So many 'if I did that in my business' examples are really tiresome because football is nothing like an office. There's a completely different dynamic at play.

I am absolutely certain Sherwoos contributed to AVB's demise. That he was seen as an antidote pretty much confirm it, otherwise why else is Levy trusting him? It's admirable to go along with the 'we've not had any substantiated facts' line but it's near enough blindingly obvious what happened. Our club had too many people pulling in different directions rather than establishing power with one man, who just over a year previously we decided knew enough about how to build a football club with his ideas that we sacked the man who got us our most consistent Prem finishes. Joke decision making.

For what it's worth I think AVB would have been happy to play the youth, and have them fill out the squad. He would have preferred to have a smaller number of top quality players rather than a load of pretty good ones. He didn't rotate much at Porto because his philosophy built rest into games there, and if we could have delivered him say 3 top players to replace Bale rather than 7, for the same money, he would have done better. Sherwood obviously thought it would be easy to pick up the reigns but he's actually done a really average job.

Sherwood is in charge of the team because Levy's preferred candidates were not available until the end of the season. If they had been, he would still be running the development squad.

We've got no idea what was or wasn't said behind the scenes or whose views were canvassed by the directors on AVB. If Sherwood was asked for his views he would be right to give them but i am not aware of any evidence that this ever happened.

Of course you are free to speculate on what you think may have happened or what AVB might have wanted to do but it is difficult to have a discussion based on supposition.

The comparison with other working environments was not about an office v a football club but how working relationships function. AVB was part of a transfer committee which also included Sherwood. I would expect there to be disagreements within that. I think that disagreements can be healthy, as long as everyone behaves professionally, a conclusion is reached and everyone pulls in the same direction once a decision has been made. I fail to see how that is not applicable to a football club.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood is in charge of the team because Levy's preferred candidates were not available until the end of the season. If they had been, he would still be running the development squad.

We've got no idea what was or wasn't said behind the scenes or whose views were canvassed by the directors on AVB. If Sherwood was asked for his views he would be right to give them but i am not aware of any evidence that this ever happened.

Of course you are free to speculate on what you think may have happened or what AVB might have wanted to do but it is difficult to have a discussion based on supposition.

The comparison with other working environments was not about an office v a football club but how working relationships function. AVB was part of a transfer committee which also included Sherwood. I would expect there to be disagreements within that. I think that disagreements can be healthy, as long as everyone behaves professionally, a conclusion is reached and everyone pulls in the same direction once a decision has been made. I fail to see how that is not applicable to a football club.

Didn't seem like everyone was pulling in the same direction though did it? And what's the result? It's set us back a year if not more.

I'm sure I've had a discussion with you on these lines before and you then used the 'nothing has been confirmed' angle. Well yes of course, but it's pretty clear what has gone on. If Sherwood was merely 'giving opinions' I'm sure there wouldn't have been that much of a problem. The problem was that Levy bought into them too easily. And why was Sherwood even given the gig ahead of Freund if none of the preferred candidates are available? Sherwood knows how to play the game and he got himself into that position.

 

[Lost Mango]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't think he's a Basset on football matters at all, but I do think he is extremely politically savvy. The way he got the contract from Levy that he wanted, he played a blinder. It was very impressive.

Don't see why he can't be politically savvy and tactically inept - not sure why those two outlooks would or should be mutually inclusive.

Did he play a blinder on his contract? He had 18 months to go on his Development contract I thought - he got a name change and a salary increase to keep him happy and ensure 'face' was kept in the public but that suited Levy as he had no one else immediately. I'm sure levy would have found a true interim if Sherwood had pushed too hard for a proper length contract.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I personally think the high-line fails as a concept if you don't have a threat at the other end.
Last year we had Bale which forced teams to defend deeper against us and therefore created a bit of a disconnect between the attack & defence of opposition teams. That enabled us to squeeze the pitch and create pressure in the opposition half. If teams did attack us it left us space to exploit on the break through Bale and to a lesser extent Lennon. Therefore less risk in playing the tactic and with Lloris sweeping I would say it was pretty successful last year. But its a tactic of very fine margins. One mistake and its not just an opposition chance, its pretty much a certain goal.

This season without Bale, I think teams were still wary of us early on as no-one really knew the level of our new signings (assumption that they were good due to reputation) so the high-line continued to work. I think it started to break down because we were struggling to score goals by 10 games in and teams realised we weren't all that. At that point teams like West Ham started to exploit it. Then a few weeks later City and Liverpool had a look at us for 10 mins, realised there was no threat at the other end and began to exploit the high-line to devestating effect. I don't think those hidings happen if Bale or some equivalent is at the other end of the pitch. But we had literally no threat up top with a folorn looking Soldado sat up there on his own. At least half of the goals in each of our hammerings has come as a direct result of playing the high line.

Spot on . Plus, I don't think our CBs have the pace to play a high line.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Don't see why he can't be politically savvy and tactically inept - not sure why those two outlooks would or should be mutually inclusive.

Did he play a blinder on his contract? He had 18 months to go on his Development contract I thought - he got a name change and a salary increase to keep him happy and ensure 'face' was kept in the public but that suited Levy as he had no one else immediately. I'm sure levy would have found a true interim if Sherwood had pushed too hard for a proper length contract.

I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, I just think Sherwood knows his tactics.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, I just think Sherwood knows his tactics.

Are you talking about the guy who had Chadli and Lennon both playing on the same wing for nearly 15 minutes before he realised?

The guy who doesn't believe in DMs and wonders why there's always a massive gap in front of our CBs that we get exploited through?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Are you talking about the guy who had Chadli and Lennon both playing on the same wing for nearly 15 minutes before he realised?

The guy who doesn't believe in DMs and wonders why there's always a massive gap in front of our CBs that we get exploited through?

Eh? When did this happen??

 

[veron23]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Eh? When did this happen??

every game

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Eh? When did this happen??

Against Norwich.

Chadli came on as an early sub for Capoue, and both Chadli and Lennon were playing RW for quite a while before someone twigged and moved Chadli onto the left. It was sunday league amateurish.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Headline of the day this one

Does that finally make him a proper Yid then?

 

[Whiffler]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Nails !