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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

Do you want Tim Sherwood to stay as manager?


  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Those kinks were worked out and fixed though. Why break them only to try and fix them again?

Rhetorical question by the way - I know the answer:

Doing the opposite of what the last guy did seemed like a good idea to YTS until he discovered that football management is actually really hard. Maybe if he just puts everything back where he found it and steps away slowly nobody will notice the cracks.

No they weren't. We've looked defensively unstable all season against any team with the ability to stretch our back four. At the start of the season we had a good clean sheet record, but it was down to us keeping possession more than defensive stability.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No they weren't. We've looked defensively unstable all season against any team with the ability to stretch our back four. At the start of the season we had a good clean sheet record, but it was down to us keeping possession more than defensive stability.

Whatever the method, YTS broke it.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Whatever the method, YTS broke it.

It was broken long before he took the job on. Like I said, we've been defensively unstable all season against any side that can stretch our back four. We went on a good run of clean sheets at the start of the season because we kept possession against the lower quality teams. As soon as we came up against anyone half decent or anyone who could stretch us we conceded. Our ability to keep possession also dropped towards the middle of the season and we then started conceding against the lower quality teams as well as the others.

So no, 'YTS' didn't break it, because it was broken before he even got it. Nor has he fixed it. He has tried to counter it, to varying degrees of success.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It was broken long before he took the job on. Like I said, we've been defensively unstable all season against any side that can stretch our back four. We went on a good run of clean sheets at the start of the season because we kept possession against the lower quality teams. As soon as we came up against anyone half decent or anyone who could stretch us we conceded. Our ability to keep possession also dropped towards the middle of the season and we then started conceding against the lower quality teams as well as the others.

So no, 'YTS' didn't break it, because it was broken before he even got it. Nor has he fixed it. He has tried to counter it, to varying degrees of success.

That's simply not the case - go to the Spurs website and take a look at the match results. Other than the matches against West Ham, City and Liverpool (West Ham was a terrible result, but lots of teams have been done over by City & Liverpool this season) we have a defensive record that title winners could be proud of.

There was no breaking of the method and possession (whilst uninspiring at times) was something we stayed good at.

Timmeh (like many posters here) seemed to think that it would be easy to just swan in, increase our attacking output and continue to have a good defensive record. That has turned out to be rubbish. I'm glad he learned his lesson, I wish it hadn't had to be with us.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That's simply not the case - go to the Spurs website and take a look at the match results. Other than the matches against West Ham, City and Liverpool (West Ham was a terrible result, but lots of teams have been done over by City & Liverpool this season) we have a defensive record that title winners could be proud of.

There was no breaking of the method and possession (whilst uninspiring at times) was something we stayed good at.

Timmeh (like many posters here) seemed to think that it would be easy to just swan in, increase our attacking output and continue to have a good defensive record. That has turned out to be rubbish. I'm glad he learned his lesson, I wish it hadn't had to be with us.

Different interpretation of the results then. Looking at the 1st ten games (teams in bold are the teams we conceded against).

Palace (currently 17th)
Swansea (currently 14th)
Arsenal (currently 3rd)
Norwich (currently 15th)
Cardiff (currently 19th)
Villa (currently 10th)
Chelsea (currently 1st)
Hull (currently 13th)
West Ham (currently 12th)
Everton (currently 6th)

I appreciate that not conceding goals is always a good thing, no matter who you are playing against, but the evidence above suggests that as soon as we came up against a side with any ability to stretch us at the back, we conceded.

Then things started to unravel and we went on the following run (again bold for teams we conceded against);

Saudi Sportswashing Machine (currently 9th)
Emirates Marketing Project (Currently 4th
Man U (currently 7th)
Fulham (currently 20th)
Sunderland (currently 18th)
Liverpool (currently 2nd)

Then AVB was sacked. So in every one of the 6 games previous to TS taking over we conceded at least one goal. The highest postioned team we kept a clean sheet against up until then based on the current league table was 6th placed Everton. Next to that was 10th placed Villa.

Against the teams above us under AVB we conceded a total of 14 goals.

How does the above suggest to you in any way that things were 'fixed' defensively before Sherwood took over?
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Different interpretation of the results then. Looking at the 1st ten games (teams in bold are the teams we conceded against).

Palace (currently 17th)
Swansea (currently 14th)
Arsenal (currently 3rd)
Norwich (currently 15th)
Cardiff (currently 19th)
Villa (currently 10th)
Chelsea (currently 1st)
Hull (currently 13th)
West Ham (currently 12th)
Everton (currently 6th)

I appreciate that not conceding goals is always a good thing, no matter who you are playing against, but the evidence above suggests that as soon as we came up against a side with any ability to stretch us at the back, we conceded.

Then things started to unravel and we went on the following run (again bold for teams we conceded against);

Saudi Sportswashing Machine (currently 9th)
Emirates Marketing Project (Currently 4th
Man U (currently 7th)
Fulham (currently 20th)
Sunderland (currently 18th)
Liverpool (currently 2nd)

Then AVB was sacked. So in every one of the 6 games previous to TS taking over we conceded at least one goal. The highest postioned team we kept a clean sheet against up until then based on the current league table was 6th placed Everton. Next to that was 10th placed Villa.

Against the teams above us under AVB we conceded a total of 14 goals.

How does the above suggest to you in any way that things were 'fixed' defensively before Sherwood took over?

Firstly, of course it's more difficult to keep clean sheets against good teams - that's why they're good teams.

Secondly, here's the list of goals against:

Date Goals against

18-Aug 0
22-Aug 0
25-Aug 0
29-Aug 0
01-Sep 1
14-Sep 0
19-Sep 0
22-Sep 0
24-Sep 0
28-Sep 1
03-Oct 0
06-Oct 3
20-Oct 0
24-Oct 0
27-Oct 0
30-Oct 2
03-Nov 0
07-Nov 1
10-Nov 1
24-Nov 6
28-Nov 0
01-Dec 2
04-Dec 1
07-Dec 1
12-Dec 1
15-Dec 5

So taking out City and Liverpool (because they've both ****ed better teams than us this season) that's one really bad West Ham match and a lot of 0 and 1 goal concessions. Fewer clean sheets in November/December, yes but a very, very long way from what even top teams would describe as a defensive problem.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Firstly, of course it's more difficult to keep clean sheets against good teams - that's why they're good teams.

Secondly, here's the list of goals against:

Date Goals against

18-Aug 0
22-Aug 0
25-Aug 0
29-Aug 0
01-Sep 1
14-Sep 0
19-Sep 0
22-Sep 0
24-Sep 0
28-Sep 1
03-Oct 0
06-Oct 3
20-Oct 0
24-Oct 0
27-Oct 0
30-Oct 2
03-Nov 0
07-Nov 1
10-Nov 1
24-Nov 6
28-Nov 0
01-Dec 2
04-Dec 1
07-Dec 1
12-Dec 1
15-Dec 5

So taking out City and Liverpool (because they've both ****ed better teams than us this season) that's one really bad West Ham match and a lot of 0 and 1 goal concessions. Fewer clean sheets in November/December, yes but a very, very long way from what even top teams would describe as a defensive problem.

If you look at it that way, then Sherwood is no different;

22-Dec 3
26-Dec 1
29-Dec 0
1-Jan 1
11-Jan 0
19-Jan 1
29-Jan 5
1-Feb 1
9-Feb 0
12-Feb 0
13-Feb 1
2-Mar 0
8-Mar 4
16-Mar 1

Bar conceding 3 against Southampton, 5 against City and 4 against Chelsea it's just a bunch of 0 and 1 goal concessions.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I personally think the high-line fails as a concept if you don't have a threat at the other end.
Last year we had Bale which forced teams to defend deeper against us and therefore created a bit of a disconnect between the attack & defence of opposition teams. That enabled us to squeeze the pitch and create pressure in the opposition half. If teams did attack us it left us space to exploit on the break through Bale and to a lesser extent Lennon. Therefore less risk in playing the tactic and with Lloris sweeping I would say it was pretty successful last year. But its a tactic of very fine margins. One mistake and its not just an opposition chance, its pretty much a certain goal.

This season without Bale, I think teams were still wary of us early on as no-one really knew the level of our new signings (assumption that they were good due to reputation) so the high-line continued to work. I think it started to break down because we were struggling to score goals by 10 games in and teams realised we weren't all that. At that point teams like West Ham started to exploit it. Then a few weeks later City and Liverpool had a look at us for 10 mins, realised there was no threat at the other end and began to exploit the high-line to devestating effect. I don't think those hidings happen if Bale or some equivalent is at the other end of the pitch. But we had literally no threat up top with a folorn looking Soldado sat up there on his own. At least half of the goals in each of our hammerings has come as a direct result of playing the high line.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I personally think the high-line fails as a concept if you don't have a threat at the other end.
Last year we had Bale which forced teams to defend deeper against us and therefore created a bit of a disconnect between the attack & defence of opposition teams. That enabled us to squeeze the pitch and create pressure in the opposition half. If teams did attack us it left us space to exploit on the break through Bale and to a lesser extent Lennon. Therefore less risk in playing the tactic and with Lloris sweeping I would say it was pretty successful last year. But its a tactic of very fine margins. One mistake and its not just an opposition chance, its pretty much a certain goal.

This season without Bale, I think teams were still wary of us early on as no-one really knew the level of our new signings (assumption that they were good due to reputation) so the high-line continued to work. I think it started to break down because we were struggling to score goals by 10 games in and teams realised we weren't all that. At that point teams like West Ham started to exploit it. Then a few weeks later City and Liverpool had a look at us for 10 mins, realised there was no threat at the other end and began to exploit the high-line to devestating effect. I don't think those hidings happen if Bale or some equivalent is at the other end of the pitch. But we had literally no threat up top with a folorn looking Soldado sat up there on his own. At least half of the goals in each of our hammerings has come as a direct result of playing the high line.

Excellent post =D>
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The Secret Footballer: Sherwood will go

http://www.teamtalk.com/liverpool/9221255/-

Under Sherwood, they are what is commonly known in the game as a "bomb scare". Nobody knows if Spurs will win a game 4-0 or lose it 4-0. They are often erratic and rarely composed.

Sherwood is attempting to play the tough guy at Spurs but it simply isn't washing. It is ridiculous to go about the job in this way when it is the widely held belief within that changing room, according to the players I know, that Spurs will appoint a new manager at the end of the season, anyway.

Tottenham are in an awkward position. The manager that they want clearly isn't available until the summer, probably after the World Cup, and until then the club is between a rock and a hard place. And that isn't Sherwood's fault.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I personally think the high-line fails as a concept if you don't have a threat at the other end.
Last year we had Bale which forced teams to defend deeper against us and therefore created a bit of a disconnect between the attack & defence of opposition teams. That enabled us to squeeze the pitch and create pressure in the opposition half. If teams did attack us it left us space to exploit on the break through Bale and to a lesser extent Lennon. Therefore less risk in playing the tactic and with Lloris sweeping I would say it was pretty successful last year. But its a tactic of very fine margins. One mistake and its not just an opposition chance, its pretty much a certain goal.

This season without Bale, I think teams were still wary of us early on as no-one really knew the level of our new signings (assumption that they were good due to reputation) so the high-line continued to work. I think it started to break down because we were struggling to score goals by 10 games in and teams realised we weren't all that. At that point teams like West Ham started to exploit it. Then a few weeks later City and Liverpool had a look at us for 10 mins, realised there was no threat at the other end and began to exploit the high-line to devestating effect. I don't think those hidings happen if Bale or some equivalent is at the other end of the pitch. But we had literally no threat up top with a folorn looking Soldado sat up there on his own. At least half of the goals in each of our hammerings has come as a direct result of playing the high line.

To my eyes the problem was further back . Cohesive pressure by the midfielders was absent and this is the critical ingredient to make the system work. The high line works well for possession based, high pressure teams but it's wide open when there is no pressure on the ball in midfield. Give any half decent midfielder time and he'll pick out the runners easily enough. IMO the players had stopped believing in the system/AVB/whatever and the net result was those hammerings. They did recover somewhat each time it happened but the die was cast.

I thought this was actually a rather successful aspect of AVB's system but it had other serious flaws.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To my eyes the problem was further back . Cohesive pressure by the midfielders was absent and this is the critical ingredient to make the system work. The high line works well for possession based, high pressure teams but it's wide open when there is no pressure on the ball in midfield. Give any half decent midfielder time and he'll pick out the runners easily enough. IMO the players had stopped believing in the system/AVB/whatever and the net result was those hammerings. They did recover somewhat each time it happened but the die was cast.

I thought this was actually a rather successful aspect of AVB's system but it had other serious flaws.

Bold bit hits the tickle my balls with a feather.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I personally think the high-line fails as a concept if you don't have a threat at the other end.
Last year we had Bale which forced teams to defend deeper against us and therefore created a bit of a disconnect between the attack & defence of opposition teams. That enabled us to squeeze the pitch and create pressure in the opposition half. If teams did attack us it left us space to exploit on the break through Bale and to a lesser extent Lennon. Therefore less risk in playing the tactic and with Lloris sweeping I would say it was pretty successful last year. But its a tactic of very fine margins. One mistake and its not just an opposition chance, its pretty much a certain goal.

This season without Bale, I think teams were still wary of us early on as no-one really knew the level of our new signings (assumption that they were good due to reputation) so the high-line continued to work. I think it started to break down because we were struggling to score goals by 10 games in and teams realised we weren't all that. At that point teams like West Ham started to exploit it. Then a few weeks later City and Liverpool had a look at us for 10 mins, realised there was no threat at the other end and began to exploit the high-line to devestating effect. I don't think those hidings happen if Bale or some equivalent is at the other end of the pitch. But we had literally no threat up top with a folorn looking Soldado sat up there on his own. At least half of the goals in each of our hammerings has come as a direct result of playing the high line.

The "inventor" of the 4-2-3-1 Juanma Lillo (at least he is creditet for inventing the formation) has in interviews stated the necessity of the high line / high pressure for it to work. It was, at least the way he's been putting it, a formation he came to think of as a formation were the soe plan was to win the ball high in the pitch.

One of the main plusses of playing a high line is not only that it compresses the area the opposition can use, but it also makes it easier for a team to support their attacking players faster. If playing a 4-5-1 of any sort and defending deep, one would very often use to much time to get into atticking postions (and the need of a striker who can do something by himself and/or hold up the ball while waiting for support). Today, with players incredibly fit and able to run far more than 10-15 years ago, it has become far easier to defend against teams drooping deeper as you can normally get into a sound defensive shape quicker (or at least just as quick) as the attacking side. Thus, if you drop deep you'll either have to resort to the long ball out (who rarely is succesfull against good teams), or you'll struggle to create anything noteworthy as they'll be organized by the time you get to run at them.

By playing a high line you open yourself at the back (and especially if your players are like Dawsone, that is not suited to it at all), but you'll also have a far better chance of cathing your opposition out of balance. Thus, playing a hihg line might not be all good, but as I see it, playing a deep line will rarely work better, and certainly not over a full season.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To my eyes the problem was further back . Cohesive pressure by the midfielders was absent and this is the critical ingredient to make the system work. The high line works well for possession based, high pressure teams but it's wide open when there is no pressure on the ball in midfield. Give any half decent midfielder time and he'll pick out the runners easily enough. IMO the players had stopped believing in the system/AVB/whatever and the net result was those hammerings. They did recover somewhat each time it happened but the die was cast.

I thought this was actually a rather successful aspect of AVB's system but it had other serious flaws.

Wouldn't disagree with that as the high-line is the modern day equivalent of the old offside trap with 4 defenders in a line with their arms aloft. Getting that right was also about pressure on the ball.
It was certainly the reason that Arsenal broke through our back line a few times on Sunday.
However I don't think that tells the entire story. For example at City we had the likes of Sandro and Lewis Holtby playing who are known to press high and engage opposition midfielders extremely well. It didn't stop City breaking through us relatively comfortably. If anything I'd say that's because playing the likes of Holtby in the hole due to his "pressing" attributes massively negates your ability to create opportunities going in the other direction, hence my point above!
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The "inventor" of the 4-2-3-1 Juanma Lillo (at least he is creditet for inventing the formation) has in interviews stated the necessity of the high line / high pressure for it to work. It was, at least the way he's been putting it, a formation he came to think of as a formation were the soe plan was to win the ball high in the pitch.

One of the main plusses of playing a high line is not only that it compresses the area the opposition can use, but it also makes it easier for a team to support their attacking players faster. If playing a 4-5-1 of any sort and defending deep, one would very often use to much time to get into atticking postions (and the need of a striker who can do something by himself and/or hold up the ball while waiting for support). Today, with players incredibly fit and able to run far more than 10-15 years ago, it has become far easier to defend against teams drooping deeper as you can normally get into a sound defensive shape quicker (or at least just as quick) as the attacking side. Thus, if you drop deep you'll either have to resort to the long ball out (who rarely is succesfull against good teams), or you'll struggle to create anything noteworthy as they'll be organized by the time you get to run at them.

By playing a high line you open yourself at the back (and especially if your players are like Dawsone, that is not suited to it at all), but you'll also have a far better chance of cathing your opposition out of balance. Thus, playing a hihg line might not be all good, but as I see it, playing a deep line will rarely work better, and certainly not over a full season.

Interesting stuff. I don't think I've seen a team in the PL defend with as high a line as Spurs do. There are levels to these tactics and at times I feel we take this one to extremes - under both managers this season.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I was tempted to join in with the Gooners on Sunday...

Tim Sherwood wooooahh
Tim Sherwood wooooaahh
He comes from Borehamwood
He aint no f*cking good...


#-o
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Enjoyed reading that. Is that the same secret footballer that used to write for the Guardian or another one?

It says it's not Sherwood's fault, but if he manouvered himself into the position he is in and contributed to the sacking of the previous guy, it kinda is.
 
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If you should be working and don't want to like me have a read of this QA session with the secret footballer about Sherwood and Rodgers. He makes a good point about Sherwood not seeing the bigger picture as he is too emotional to take it in.

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/2483/9221437/The-Secret-Footballer-Live-Q-A

Just reading that session and he is talking broadly along similar lines with respect to a striker taking pressure off the back four as were discussing above:

Brendan was clever, he had a lot of midfielders and a weak back four so he signed a striker to run in behind (Sturridge) to take the pressure off the back four.

I don't care what league you play in or where it is in the world, if you have two strikers that can hold the ball up, are quick, can run in behind and be a constant menace to an oppositions back four then forget the goals they score for a moment, they are the equivalent to keeping 20 goals out of your own net because teams just do not have time to play. So what happens? They start hitting long balls straight on the head of Skrtel and Agger and where does the ball drop? At the feet of Coutinho or Gerrard, Henderson or Allen, all players that are capable of keeping the ball and playing a pass to two strikers that then cause havoc again.
 
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