Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No, it doesnt suggest anything of the sort. It just suggests that your own biased viewpoint sees it that way. It rather seems that you are somehow hoping for TS to fail to somehow justify your support for the previous manager. Let me allow you into a secret - your man aint coming back. The sooner you understand that the better. His departure will not make a jot of difference to whether TS is a failure or success. As I keep trying to emphasise, it is too early to judge him. He may be a success or he may be a failure. But a handful of games in the middle of the season with a bagful of injuries is not the best time to judge a coaches abilities or otherwise. In the meantime, it wouldnt hurt to get behind the team and show some support - not just say we are headed for a car crash and that you only hope we "at least" beat the Goons.

We are up against Chelscum next and you are forecasting a win in the OMT!!! How inconsistent is that?

Sigh...no matter what I say you keep on bringing up AVB in some shape or form. I am trying to discuss TS and our play under him. Instead of writing your own biased view that I want TS to fail 'to justify my support for the previous manager' :ross: why don't you tell me how our pattern of play does NOT suggest we are getting by being lucky here and there?
Go on actually counter my point instead of going on and on about AVB. Try it. Use actual games and examples etc. You take such effort to keep mentioning AVB (even when he HASN'T been mentioned) so no doubt you can take effort to counter my points/views.
Go on, try it. You might like it!

I am predicting a win based on nothing but blind faith; the kind of blind faith we often have as supporters. I'm certainly not putting money on it (24 years and counting, I'm not THAT blind); unlike the Arsenal game where I have a few bets and family/friends/colleague bragging rights riding on the result. Nothing really inconsistent at all really, just in your mind

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sigh...no matter what I say you keep on bringing up AVB in some shape or form. I am trying to discuss TS and our play under him. Instead of writing your own biased view that I want TS to fail 'to justify my support for the previous manager' :ross: why don't you tell me how our pattern of play does NOT suggest we are getting by being lucky here and there?
Go on actually counter my point instead of going on and on about AVB. Try it. Use actual games and examples etc. You take such effort to keep mentioning AVB (even when he HASN'T been mentioned) so no doubt you can take effort to counter my points/views.
Go on, try it. You might like it!

Lets make a pact - you dont mention AVB ever again (as you did in the post I was responding to above, yes you know the one you said he wasnt even mentioned) and I wont mention him again. OK. That would suit me fine.

You dont seem to understand plain English. I keep replying to the point you are trying to make. I keep saying it is too early to make any such judgement. You even grudgingly acknowledged that fact in an earlier post. The fact is that you cant make a thesis based on insufficient evidence. At present, there is insufficient evidence IMO. Any judgements made at this point in time can only be based purely on ones own biased perceptions.

The facts are that we are scoring goals. I believe Norwich was the first time we failed to score in the PL under Sherwood. We are playing with more attacking verve (except for the Norwich aberration and our poorer displays usually followed our Europa games) we are creating more, getting more bodies in the box and, in my opinion, are generally more entertaining to watch.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Lets make a pact - you dont mention AVB ever again (as you did in the post I was responding to above, yes you know the one you said he wasnt even mentioned) and I wont mention him again. OK. That would suit me fine.

You dont seem to understand plain English. I keep replying to the point you are trying to make. I keep saying it is too early to make any such judgement. You even grudgingly acknowledged that fact in an earlier post. The fact is that you cant make a thesis based on insufficient evidence. At present, there is insufficient evidence IMO. Any judgements made at this point in time can only be based purely on ones own biased perceptions.

The facts are that we are scoring goals. I believe Norwich was the first time we failed to score in the PL under Sherwood. We are playing with more attacking verve (except for the Norwich aberration and our poorer displays usually followed our Europa games) we are creating more, getting more bodies in the box and, in my opinion, are generally more entertaining to watch.

Pact is fine with me. And the bolded bit highlighted for reference, as well as hilarity. Especially given your last line.:lol:

We are certainly scoring more goals, and thank heavens for that, though the question has to be at what expense?
I would also say that the fact is that we are less competitive generally against our top 4 rivals and the team seem less equipped to go up against the goliaths in the PL right now. Obviously the Chelski game will be a big barometer, but the meek way we surrendered vs Arsenal and the way we were outplayed in the first 35 mins vs City don't give me much REAL confidence (despite my crazy Stamford bridge prediction!!).
Happy to be proved wrong, but the perception I have is that we go from ultra-attacking to ultra-defensive because we not able to form a balance or 'structure' to our play right.
And it's that lack of balance that I fear will undo us in March imo.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Pact is fine with me. And the bolded bit highlighted for reference, as well as hilarity. Especially given your last line.:lol:

We are certainly scoring more goals, and thank heavens for that, though the question has to be at what expense?
I would also say that the fact is that we are less competitive generally against our top 4 rivals and the team seem less equipped to go up against the goliaths in the PL right now. Obviously the Chelski game will be a big barometer, but the meek way we surrendered vs Arsenal and the way we were outplayed in the first 35 mins vs City don't give me much REAL confidence (despite my crazy Stamford bridge prediction!!).
Happy to be proved wrong, but the perception I have is that we go from ultra-attacking to ultra-defensive because we not able to form a balance or 'structure' to our play right.
And it's that lack of balance that I fear will undo us in March imo.

And what do you base this bolded bit on? Have we really been less competitive against our top four rivals? We have beaten United at OT. We lost to Emirates Marketing Project - but at a crucial point in the game when we were just 0-1 down and coming back into the match, we unfortunately had a Daws goal ruled out (which could have gone a different way on another occasion) and then had Rose wrongly sent off and conceded a penalty that wasnt. So in this game, instead of quite easily being 1-1 with 11 against 11, it was suddenly 0-2 with 10 v11.

I would argue that we were much less competitive against Liverpool 0-5 and City 0-6. Against the Scum away, although we "only" lost 0-1, we were soundly beaten and never threatened their goal in the entire 90 minutes. Against Chelski at home, we were good in the first half but soundly handed our **** to us when Mata came on and in the end were fortunate to get a draw IMO.

I think (unfortunately) that we are generally uncompetitive against our top four rivals because (regretfully) they simply have better players than we do. To get any sort of result against the likes of Chelski on saturday, our players will have to be at the top of their games (hopefully) and the Chelsea players dont play to their full potential.

How many of our players would get realistically get into the Chelski, City, Arsnl teams? It really isnt down to just the coach IMO

 

[Armchair Expert]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

And what do you base this bolded bit on? Have we really been less competitive against our top four rivals? We have beaten United at OT. We lost to Emirates Marketing Project - but at a crucial point in the game when we were just 0-1 down and coming back into the match, we unfortunately had a Daws goal ruled out (which could have gone a different way on another occasion) and then had Rose wrongly sent off and conceded a penalty that wasnt. So in this game, instead of quite easily being 1-1 with 11 against 11, it was suddenly 0-2 with 10 v11.

I would argue that we were much less competitive against Liverpool 0-5 and City 0-6. Against the Scum away, although we "only" lost 0-1, we were soundly beaten and never threatened their goal in the entire 90 minutes. Against Chelski at home, we were good in the first half but soundly handed our **** to us when Mata came on and in the end were fortunate to get a draw IMO.

I think (unfortunately) that we are generally uncompetitive against our top four rivals because (regretfully) they simply have better players than we do. To get any sort of result against the likes of Chelski on saturday, our players will have to be at the top of their games (hopefully) and the Chelsea players dont play to their full potential.

How many of our players would get realistically get into the Chelski, City, Arsnl teams? It really isnt down to just the coach IMO

Spot on. We simply aren't as good as those above us. Hence we are in a battle for 5th with Everton and Utd whilst the top 4 are all in with a shout of the league.

There's no disgrace in that, its just a shame as we have lost a monumental chance to create a squad capable of going for the title.

 

[NWND]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Spot on. We simply aren't as good as those above us. Hence we are in a battle for 5th with Everton and Utd whilst the top 4 are all in with a shout of the league.

There's no disgrace in that, its just a shame as we have lost a monumental chance to create a squad capable of going for the title.

I don't really think its as clear cut as that, as I feel that our players haven't been playing to their potential. For example, while on his current Spurs form, Paulinho wouldn't get in the Arsenal, Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project midfields, it should be pointed out that for Brazil, he is considered "in front of" and "better than", both Ramires and Fernandinho, both of whom are starting players for Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project. I'd say Soldado, on his Valencia form is certainly better than Arsenal and Chelsea's first-choice strikers, but unfortunately he hasn't been performing anywhere near that for Spurs. Dembele and Sigurdsson failed to reach the form of their previous clubs where we bought them from.

I think while every signing is a gamble, to have all 7 of our signings from this summer and probably half the signings from our previous summer be dissapointing when compared to the investment in them is certainly not expected or in keeping with the general odds of a signing having a decent impact.

I think a lot this is down to mismanagement.

You have to look at Liverpool. I would say player-for-player we still have a superior squad, but in terms of performance and team, they are light years ahead of us this season.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree our players haven't been playing to their potential, there's so much more to come from us, I feel like we haven't got out of 2nd gear all season and yet we're still 5th on a decent points total. I think we're there BECAUSE we've got good players and their poor is still better than 80% of the league. We have barely seen anything from soldado, lamela and paulinho. In fact none of our signings have hit the ground running or anything like, I really think that given the right manager this squad has got loads of potential.

 

[billyiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree our players haven't been playing to their potential, there's so much more to come from us, I feel like we haven't got out of 2nd gear all season and yet we're still 5th on a decent points total. I think we're there BECAUSE we've got good players and their poor is still better than 80% of the league. We have barely seen anything from soldado, lamela and paulinho. In fact none of our signings have hit the ground running or anything like, I really think that given the right manager this squad has got loads of potential.

Wholeheartedly agree - to me it seems quite obvious we've been playing beneath ourselves pretty much all season - work out a way of getting the best from this group of players and next season could be a good one.

 

[superfaisty]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Isn't the point that whoever was in charge, last summers new players would really started to excel in their second season wi us.

The worry now is if it's not Tim the players will be starting again to try and build their team play under a new manager. Swapping managers can be as disruptive as changing the team wholesale as we did.

Bottom line we need some proper long term planning here and support for the manager not this ****amamie short term ism.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Isn't the point that whoever was in charge, last summers new players would really started to excel in their second season wi us.

The worry now is if it's not Tim the players will be starting again to try and build their team play under a new manager. Swapping managers can be as disruptive as changing the team wholesale as we did.

Bottom line we need some proper long term planning here and support for the manager not this ****amamie short term ism.

Agreed, which is why I really respect Man United and ther fans who have largely backed Moyes this season. The whole club is too clever to think 'bad results = bad manager' and know that the best way to get success is through long term planning. The culture of backing the manager and acting as one is ingrained into the club, which is why Moyes was able to put out that statement this week. Never in a million years would we see that kind of backing from Levy and it really annoys me.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, which is why I really respect Man United and ther fans who have largely backed Moyes this season. The whole club is too clever to think 'bad results = bad manager' and know that the best way to get success is through long term planning. The culture of backing the manager and acting as one is ingrained into the club, which is why Moyes was able to put out that statement this week. Never in a million years would we see that kind of backing from Levy and it really annoys me.

I agree. Short-termism is a large part of our problem.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, which is why I really respect Man United and ther fans who have largely backed Moyes this season. The whole club is too clever to think 'bad results = bad manager' and know that the best way to get success is through long term planning. The culture of backing the manager and acting as one is ingrained into the club, which is why Moyes was able to put out that statement this week. Never in a million years would we see that kind of backing from Levy and it really annoys me.

You would if the guy who picked the new manager was someone who led us to dominate English football for over 20 years after being given 4 years grace for not winning anything. United are a different situation than any other club in the Fergie essentially has more power than anyone else at the club. What he says goes and therefore Moyes is being given time.

Football is a different game now though and I do think if they miss out in CL this season and next he's gone.

Most of my United supporting mates want him out by the way.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, which is why I really respect Man United and ther fans who have largely backed Moyes this season. The whole club is too clever to think 'bad results = bad manager' and know that the best way to get success is through long term planning. The culture of backing the manager and acting as one is ingrained into the club, which is why Moyes was able to put out that statement this week. Never in a million years would we see that kind of backing from Levy and it really annoys me.

Sorry mate, support when there is some reason to do so is admirable, blindly = stupid

Moyes will go down as one of the worst appointment decisions ever at a big club, the guy had nothing that qualified him to be Spur's manager, all people do is make excuses for the guy, he puts out a team with Rooney, Mata & RVP and they play awfully ...

TS will have to get a few very good results, including the performances between now and then end of season to make him worth the gamble of another season, in my opinion, given a better option in summer, at this point the club would have no choice risk wise but to take it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

You would if the guy who picked the new manager was someone who led us to dominate English football for over 20 years after being given 4 years grace for not winning anything. United are a different situation than any other club in the Fergie essentially has more power than anyone else at the club. What he says goes and therefore Moyes is being given time.

Football is a different game now though and I do think if they miss out in CL this season and next he's gone.

Most of my United supporting mates want him out by the way.

I don't really agree with the 'it's a different era' line of thinking. Fergie was an era before Wenger, but both have been backed long term and both have allowed their clubs to be relatively consistent at the top end of the table. Our task is to overachieve and somehow Levy thinks we can do this by spending less net than our rivals, paying less wages and not allowing any long term continuity to be put into place to compensate for any of that.

I don't think the thing about Man United is that it's about Fergie's word. It's the fact that they gave Fergie time, and were proved correct, so they know it works. They could very easily sack Moyes, or could have sacked him months ago even, if they were simply going to judge it on short term results, but they haven't and they won't. I see no reason why if Man United can act like that in this era, then we should be able to too.

Levy seems to tire very quickly with his managers and almost views them with suspicion, it's quite bizarre. I really liked AVB, but whoever the manager is, if the Chairman has decided to employ him, he should back him. In the case of AVB, he took a massively risky decision to sack a man that had delivered us our most consistent finishes in the PL era to employ the guy, only to tire of him quickly. I have no doubt Sherwood is gone, and I highly doubt that if we bring in Van Gaal or De Boer or Prandelli, the moment they hit a run of results which suggests they may not hit the frankly ludicrous expectations that Levy places upon them considering the restraints they operate under, he will lose patience with them too.

And around and around we go, squandering opportunity after opportunity to break the cartel. It's tiresome, I'm massively losing interest in following us because I've seen it so much before in the last ten years that it's not even funny or interesting anymore. The same mistakes continually get repeated and we've never moved forward despite various clubs having shocking seasons over the last few years that would have given us ample opportunity to take advantage.

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't really agree with the 'it's a different era' line of thinking. Fergie was an era before Wenger, but both have been backed long term and both have allowed their clubs to be relatively consistent at the top end of the table. Our task is to overachieve and somehow Levy thinks we can do this by spending less net than our rivals, paying less wages and not allowing any long term continuity to be put into place to compensate for any of that.

I don't think the thing about Man United is that it's about Fergie's word. It's the fact that they gave Fergie time, and were proved correct, so they know it works. They could very easily sack Moyes, or could have sacked him months ago even, if they were simply going to judge it on short term results, but they haven't and they won't. I see no reason why if Man United can act like that in this era, then we should be able to too.

Levy seems to tire very quickly with his managers and almost views them with suspicion, it's quite bizarre. I really liked AVB, but whoever the manager is, if the Chairman has decided to employ him, he should back him. In the case of AVB, he took a massively risky decision to sack a man that had delivered us our most consistent finishes in the PL era to employ the guy, only to tire of him quickly. I have no doubt Sherwood is gone, and I highly doubt that if we bring in Van Gaal or De Boer or Prandelli, the moment they hit a run of results which suggests they may not hit the frankly ludicrous expectations that Levy places upon them considering the restraints they operate under, he will lose patience with them too.

And around and around we go, squandering opportunity after opportunity to break the cartel. It's tiresome, I'm massively losing interest in following us because I've seen it so much before in the last ten years that it's not even funny or interesting anymore. The same mistakes continually get repeated and we've never moved forward despite various clubs having shocking seasons over the last few years that would have given us ample opportunity to take advantage.

This is a really really good post and is pretty much my worry if we hire a new man in the summer, in fact history a repeating is my biggest fear for spurs...are we going to get another 2 points from eight games scenario in the not to distant future?.

It would be interesting to see how we start a season after the current regime have had a pre season but I doubt they will get that opportunity.

As fans perhaps we are just as impatient as Levy. We all get too carried away after a win and far too downbeat after a loss. I dont know if Sherwood can be what I would like...I want us to have a style and a soul about how we play...not too rigid but a decent blueprint for how we go about games.

Some on here will be getting the champagne out if LVG,FDB or Prandelli get appointed...personally I wont, would just be worried about another Ramos/AVB scenario. we keep changing our structure and then reverting back....it smacks of uncertainty.

This isnt anti Levy...but it would be nice if I felt we ever learnt from our mistakes.

Ideally I would like Tim to be uber sucessful from now...which means winning EL & getting top 4....that would please me in the short term and be good for us in the long term...if those goals are not met which I dont think they will be then I just hope Levy gets the right man and gives him time.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, which is why I really respect Man United and ther fans who have largely backed Moyes this season. The whole club is too clever to think 'bad results = bad manager' and know that the best way to get success is through long term planning. The culture of backing the manager and acting as one is ingrained into the club, which is why Moyes was able to put out that statement this week. Never in a million years would we see that kind of backing from Levy and it really annoys me.

If Moyes ends up getting the sack in the end after not succeeding will the decision to keep him longer than they had to still be a clever one in your opinion?

United still haven't seen Moyes sit for a full year, a bit early to be talking about this as "a culture of backing the manager and acting as one" isn't it?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I don't really agree with the 'it's a different era' line of thinking. Fergie was an era before Wenger, but both have been backed long term and both have allowed their clubs to be relatively consistent at the top end of the table. Our task is to overachieve and somehow Levy thinks we can do this by spending less net than our rivals, paying less wages and not allowing any long term continuity to be put into place to compensate for any of that.

I don't think the thing about Man United is that it's about Fergie's word. It's the fact that they gave Fergie time, and were proved correct, so they know it works. They could very easily sack Moyes, or could have sacked him months ago even, if they were simply going to judge it on short term results, but they haven't and they won't. I see no reason why if Man United can act like that in this era, then we should be able to too.

Levy seems to tire very quickly with his managers and almost views them with suspicion, it's quite bizarre. I really liked AVB, but whoever the manager is, if the Chairman has decided to employ him, he should back him. In the case of AVB, he took a massively risky decision to sack a man that had delivered us our most consistent finishes in the PL era to employ the guy, only to tire of him quickly. I have no doubt Sherwood is gone, and I highly doubt that if we bring in Van Gaal or De Boer or Prandelli, the moment they hit a run of results which suggests they may not hit the frankly ludicrous expectations that Levy places upon them considering the restraints they operate under, he will lose patience with them too.

And around and around we go, squandering opportunity after opportunity to break the cartel. It's tiresome, I'm massively losing interest in following us because I've seen it so much before in the last ten years that it's not even funny or interesting anymore. The same mistakes continually get repeated and we've never moved forward despite various clubs having shocking seasons over the last few years that would have given us ample opportunity to take advantage.

My post maybe came across as if I was defending Levy's revolving door policy on managers, I'm not. In fact, at the level we are currently at I think sticking with someone is probably our best approach. We don't regularly qualify for CL, were pretty much best of the rest, so we don't really have anything to lose by sticking by someone who we really believe is the guy for the job. A couple of 7th place finishes in the grand scheme of things is no big deal if we eventually end up regularly top 4. If however we were one of the top 4 regulars, a couple of 5th place finishes would be a big deal. There in lies the difference between football back when Fergie wasn't wining anything and football now.

If Moyes fails to qualify for CL this year, then does the same next year, the only reason he will keep his job (if he does) is because Fergie is upstairs IMO.

 

[Pirate55]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is a really really good post and is pretty much my worry if we hire a new man in the summer, in fact history a repeating is my biggest fear for spurs...are we going to get another 2 points from eight games scenario in the not to distant future?.

It would be interesting to see how we start a season after the current regime have had a pre season but I doubt they will get that opportunity.

As fans perhaps we are just as impatient as Levy. We all get too carried away after a win and far too downbeat after a loss. I dont know if Sherwood can be what I would like...I want us to have a style and a soul about how we play...not too rigid but a decent blueprint for how we go about games.

Some on here will be getting the champagne out if LVG,FDB or Prandelli get appointed...personally I wont, would just be worried about another Ramos/AVB scenario. we keep changing our structure and then reverting back....it smacks of uncertainty.

This isnt anti Levy...but it would be nice if I felt we ever learnt from our mistakes.

Ideally I would like Tim to be uber sucessful from now...which means winning EL & getting top 4....that would please me in the short term and be good for us in the long term...if those goals are not met which I dont think they will be then I just hope Levy gets the right man and gives him time.

I agree with that. I just think our expectations of a top four finish and winning the EL are simply ridiculously unachieveable - whoever the manager is at this point in the season. Our players simply aren't as good as our rivals, we don't have a settled team or playing style, we have a hugely unbalanced squad and a long injury list.

It would take a miracle to get top four. LVG, De Boer, Prandelli... or even SAF would struggle to achieve that from here IMO. Never mind expecting it from a novice manager.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I agree with that. I just think our expectations of a top four finish and winning the EL are simply ridiculously unachieveable - whoever the manager is at this point in the season. Our players simply aren't as good as our rivals, we don't have a settled team or playing style, we have a hugely unbalanced squad and a long injury list.

It would take a miracle to get top four. LVG, De Boer, Prandelli... or even SAF would struggle to achieve that from here IMO. Never mind expecting it from a novice manager.

This is probably true, but such is life for the novice manager who only got the job because of special circumstances and a lack of options. Perform way above what's been expected or be replaced by a more proven managerial target come the summer. Seems fair enough to me.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sorry mate, support when there is some reason to do so is admirable, blindly = stupid

Moyes will go down as one of the worst appointment decisions ever at a big club, the guy had nothing that qualified him to be Spur's manager, all people do is make excuses for the guy, he puts out a team with Rooney, Mata & RVP and they play awfully ...

TS will have to get a few very good results, including the performances between now and then end of season to make him worth the gamble of another season, in my opinion, given a better option in summer, at this point the club would have no choice risk wise but to take it.

Completely agree raziel, I just don't get the comparatively free ride moyes seems to be getting. He's taken that club so far backwards it's unreal, all this rubbish about them not having good players, mata, Rooney, RVP, carrick, kagawa, I could go on. He spent a fortune there as well, yet people will say he wasn't backed, again rubbish, he just targeted the wrong players.

It's a complete fallacy that you have to just stick with a manager and it will come good. Like blind faith, sticking your head in the sand.