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Tim Sherwood…gone \o/
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
THFC6061
Paul Robinson
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
People are quick enough to blame him when Spurs lose, so why not give the chap a bit of credit when we win?
People are quick enough to blame him when Spurs lose, so why not give the chap a bit of credit when we win?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I just don't buy it. I don't buy that a manager is either good or bad. What I think it takes to build a successful football club is backing a manager, and allowing him the opportunity to succeed. What United do very well is back a manager, and do everything they can in order to allow him to be the man. Everything goes through that man, and he is backed beyond all else.
I think as long as a manager has proven a relative level of competence, if you back them they will likely succeed eventually. Unless it's a Les Reed at Charlton situation, or Stuart Wigley at Southampton, where they are youth coaches that didn't have the competence to step up, it will probably be ok. Moyes has proven he can lead a club, he can be the man, he can build something for the long term. He understands tactics, he can manage men, he gets them working hard and he is careful with the players he signs, because he wants to take his time and build something sustainable. He is a good manager.
What has happened this season isn't because Moyes is bad IMO. It's more that the club is experiencing the shock of losing someone who used to be 'the man' and getting used to someone else, who will have slightly different methods but a lot of similar characteristics. Aside from that, their squad was no where near good enough to win the league by 11 points last year, and although they've dropped a lot, their true level wasn't as high as it was last year, but I think they were riding the wave of having a guy who was 'the man' give them a load of points every season and making them overperform, because they build something long term.
Moyes will have his ideas about how to run a club. Give him the tools to make that happen and he will probably do ok. Man United back their managers and allow that to happen. The moment others start getting involved, it muddies the waters. See Abramovic giving Mourinho Shevchenko and watching it all go tits up. See Levy not backing AVB. See Levy playing silly buggers with Ramos' strike force. See Levy allowing Commoli to screw over the relationship with Jol. It's just ridiculous. The great thing about Man United is that the fans also appreciate the value of backing the manager, not just the board. So the pressure is reduced and they are allowed to build something. I really, really admire that.
I just don't buy it. I don't buy that a manager is either good or bad. What I think it takes to build a successful football club is backing a manager, and allowing him the opportunity to succeed. What United do very well is back a manager, and do everything they can in order to allow him to be the man. Everything goes through that man, and he is backed beyond all else.
I think as long as a manager has proven a relative level of competence, if you back them they will likely succeed eventually. Unless it's a Les Reed at Charlton situation, or Stuart Wigley at Southampton, where they are youth coaches that didn't have the competence to step up, it will probably be ok. Moyes has proven he can lead a club, he can be the man, he can build something for the long term. He understands tactics, he can manage men, he gets them working hard and he is careful with the players he signs, because he wants to take his time and build something sustainable. He is a good manager.
What has happened this season isn't because Moyes is bad IMO. It's more that the club is experiencing the shock of losing someone who used to be 'the man' and getting used to someone else, who will have slightly different methods but a lot of similar characteristics. Aside from that, their squad was no where near good enough to win the league by 11 points last year, and although they've dropped a lot, their true level wasn't as high as it was last year, but I think they were riding the wave of having a guy who was 'the man' give them a load of points every season and making them overperform, because they build something long term.
Moyes will have his ideas about how to run a club. Give him the tools to make that happen and he will probably do ok. Man United back their managers and allow that to happen. The moment others start getting involved, it muddies the waters. See Abramovic giving Mourinho Shevchenko and watching it all go tits up. See Levy not backing AVB. See Levy playing silly buggers with Ramos' strike force. See Levy allowing Commoli to screw over the relationship with Jol. It's just ridiculous. The great thing about Man United is that the fans also appreciate the value of backing the manager, not just the board. So the pressure is reduced and they are allowed to build something. I really, really admire that.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Could people not say the same about Fergie's first few years?
Could people not say the same about Fergie's first few years?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Do you think they won't back him? Do you think that they would have put out a club branded 'Message from the Boss' if they were thinking about letting him go at the end of the season? Not a chance in hell. He can finish 7th this year and he will still be in his job, and the board and fans will still back him, and that is so so admirable.
Man United know that is isn't all about 'this manager is good! this manager is bad! this manager makes us lose games because he is so bad! this manager makes us win because he is a genius!'. Have we not seen so many examples of previously good managers doing badly to suggest it isn't all as simple as that? Or previously bad managers doing well? Or novice managers actually doing pretty well themselves? It's not about whether a manager is good or not. If they have the base level of competence to manage a club in the PL over the long term, they will probably do ok. The key is if they are given the circumstances to allow them to perform, or whether they are hamstrung by the club the work for interfering constantly. Moyes will get the luxury of time, the board and the fans will give him that. He will be allowed to shape the club as he wants it and they will reap the rewards.
I really like what Sherwood has been saying this week. That we are not playing exactly how he would like us to but he is going game by game to get results. He knows too that if he got time he will build something pretty good too. I'm glad he's acknowledge this, and it isn't like we have been seeing exactly what he wants so far. So that's good. I just want someone to be given time but I doubt it will ever happen.
Do you think they won't back him? Do you think that they would have put out a club branded 'Message from the Boss' if they were thinking about letting him go at the end of the season? Not a chance in hell. He can finish 7th this year and he will still be in his job, and the board and fans will still back him, and that is so so admirable.
Man United know that is isn't all about 'this manager is good! this manager is bad! this manager makes us lose games because he is so bad! this manager makes us win because he is a genius!'. Have we not seen so many examples of previously good managers doing badly to suggest it isn't all as simple as that? Or previously bad managers doing well? Or novice managers actually doing pretty well themselves? It's not about whether a manager is good or not. If they have the base level of competence to manage a club in the PL over the long term, they will probably do ok. The key is if they are given the circumstances to allow them to perform, or whether they are hamstrung by the club the work for interfering constantly. Moyes will get the luxury of time, the board and the fans will give him that. He will be allowed to shape the club as he wants it and they will reap the rewards.
I really like what Sherwood has been saying this week. That we are not playing exactly how he would like us to but he is going game by game to get results. He knows too that if he got time he will build something pretty good too. I'm glad he's acknowledge this, and it isn't like we have been seeing exactly what he wants so far. So that's good. I just want someone to be given time but I doubt it will ever happen.
Cochise
Steve Carr
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
The problem for Sherwood is that his "time" includes the second half of this season. He will be judged on what he gets out of the players he has right now and if it isn't enough then he won't get more. Ideally the man needs a pre season to spend with the players to lay the ground work and then a season to hone that system. If he knew he had the job for the long term, he would likely have given up on the hunt for the top 4 and focussed on developing the style of football he wants. He does readily admit that his goals are short term, with results taking precedence over style, as such I don't think we can expect to see too much over the course of the next 2-3 months which in the end may be what gets him the axe.
Still his CV will look quite nice
The problem for Sherwood is that his "time" includes the second half of this season. He will be judged on what he gets out of the players he has right now and if it isn't enough then he won't get more. Ideally the man needs a pre season to spend with the players to lay the ground work and then a season to hone that system. If he knew he had the job for the long term, he would likely have given up on the hunt for the top 4 and focussed on developing the style of football he wants. He does readily admit that his goals are short term, with results taking precedence over style, as such I don't think we can expect to see too much over the course of the next 2-3 months which in the end may be what gets him the axe.
Still his CV will look quite nice
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I really am in two minds. I like Sherwood and as things stand (I must stress that part as things can change) I think he's doing relatively well and deserves next season at the very least. But if we could get another manager like De Boer or Van Gaal would it be too good to turn down? Then again we know more than most how getting a big name foreign manager isn't always the answer despite the temptation.
I would also like us to ditch the DOF format but I know that won't ever happen.
I really am in two minds. I like Sherwood and as things stand (I must stress that part as things can change) I think he's doing relatively well and deserves next season at the very least. But if we could get another manager like De Boer or Van Gaal would it be too good to turn down? Then again we know more than most how getting a big name foreign manager isn't always the answer despite the temptation.
I would also like us to ditch the DOF format but I know that won't ever happen.
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
The Spurs job is fairly ridiculous. Lose a couple of games and your under pressure. The expectations in comparison to the squad and wage structure at the managers disposal are often wildly unrealistic.
The interfering and board level chaos has left us in this position now with an unbalanced squad and losing ground on rivals. Levy needs to take a huge slice of the blame this time: I'm definitely a Levy fan but this sort of mess didn't need to happen this season. From the Summer window to today has been a perfect example of how not to run a club.
I'm still a Levy fan but we really need to turn the corner in the Summer, whether with Sherwood (unlikely) or a new guy.
However there are limits - AVB had to go. We were looking dire and getting worse by the week. There has to be a balance. I think for Spurs fans to stay onside we just need to see progression, foundations being laid, and importantly - in the tradition of the club.
I genuinely feel that if for example de Boer came in the Summer, Lloris, Verts etc agitate for a move and get and we need to reshuffle the pack to re-balance it in line with the de Boer's philosophy and we come 9th but with a vibrant young team, I honestly think Spurs fans would accept it. People talk about the pressure at Spurs and fans expectations, but i think our crowd would rather watch a flowing, dynamic side in the mould of a true Spurs/Ajax team and come ninth laying foundations for the future than stumble towards fifth with the shambles we've seen this season...
What I am actually saying?? :lol: erm, continuity is great, but a degree of realism is required also. Heads in the sand is no good, but an itchy trigger finger is also not the key to success. I don't think Man Utd's fans are any different to any other clubs - including ours. Its easy to be patient and give a manager time when that manager was appointed in a different era of football and the most successful of all time. Moyes is a different kettle of fish to AVB - one blatantly has management skills, a certain pedigree and a decent CV, the other is increasingly looking like a managerial charlatan.
Like I say, I hope we can turn it round in the Summer, and that the fans can swallow a season or two of inconsistency in the search for the stability and cohesion we're all obviously craving.
The Spurs job is fairly ridiculous. Lose a couple of games and your under pressure. The expectations in comparison to the squad and wage structure at the managers disposal are often wildly unrealistic.
The interfering and board level chaos has left us in this position now with an unbalanced squad and losing ground on rivals. Levy needs to take a huge slice of the blame this time: I'm definitely a Levy fan but this sort of mess didn't need to happen this season. From the Summer window to today has been a perfect example of how not to run a club.
I'm still a Levy fan but we really need to turn the corner in the Summer, whether with Sherwood (unlikely) or a new guy.
However there are limits - AVB had to go. We were looking dire and getting worse by the week. There has to be a balance. I think for Spurs fans to stay onside we just need to see progression, foundations being laid, and importantly - in the tradition of the club.
I genuinely feel that if for example de Boer came in the Summer, Lloris, Verts etc agitate for a move and get and we need to reshuffle the pack to re-balance it in line with the de Boer's philosophy and we come 9th but with a vibrant young team, I honestly think Spurs fans would accept it. People talk about the pressure at Spurs and fans expectations, but i think our crowd would rather watch a flowing, dynamic side in the mould of a true Spurs/Ajax team and come ninth laying foundations for the future than stumble towards fifth with the shambles we've seen this season...
What I am actually saying?? :lol: erm, continuity is great, but a degree of realism is required also. Heads in the sand is no good, but an itchy trigger finger is also not the key to success. I don't think Man Utd's fans are any different to any other clubs - including ours. Its easy to be patient and give a manager time when that manager was appointed in a different era of football and the most successful of all time. Moyes is a different kettle of fish to AVB - one blatantly has management skills, a certain pedigree and a decent CV, the other is increasingly looking like a managerial charlatan.
Like I say, I hope we can turn it round in the Summer, and that the fans can swallow a season or two of inconsistency in the search for the stability and cohesion we're all obviously craving.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Paulinho's red against Liverpool has long been airbrushed out.
Paulinho's red against Liverpool has long been airbrushed out.
spurs' magna carter
Ronnie Rosenthal
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.....
I'm sorry kids but when you're challenging for a place in the top four you simply cannot have defeats of
6-1, 5-0, 5-1 and 4-0
during the course of the season.
I actually feel for Sherwood, very good game plan that was doing a very good job but Jan's mistake is bordering unforgivable and the ref made a shocker.
£108m and these four results, truly embarrassing.
Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses.....
I'm sorry kids but when you're challenging for a place in the top four you simply cannot have defeats of
6-1, 5-0, 5-1 and 4-0
during the course of the season.
I actually feel for Sherwood, very good game plan that was doing a very good job but Jan's mistake is bordering unforgivable and the ref made a shocker.
£108m and these four results, truly embarrassing.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Sherwood is factually a novice manager. It's no disgrace to lose to Emirates Marketing Project or Chel$ki...but like many previous Spurs managers he doesn't seem able to instill any kind of grit to hang on in there when bad situations occur against us in a game.
Other top 4/top 4 chasing sides would maybe have lost 2-0 today, perhaps just 3-1 vs City and just shut up shop for the sake of pride.
We need a manager who long-term can instill some grit, a strategy, a plan B and some mental fortitude.
I don't think Sherwood is that manager. Perhaps LVG is...I fear for us next Sunday...
Sherwood is factually a novice manager. It's no disgrace to lose to Emirates Marketing Project or Chel$ki...but like many previous Spurs managers he doesn't seem able to instill any kind of grit to hang on in there when bad situations occur against us in a game.
Other top 4/top 4 chasing sides would maybe have lost 2-0 today, perhaps just 3-1 vs City and just shut up shop for the sake of pride.
We need a manager who long-term can instill some grit, a strategy, a plan B and some mental fortitude.
I don't think Sherwood is that manager. Perhaps LVG is...I fear for us next Sunday...
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Sherwood speaking like a fan about the players there.
No idea if that's a good thing but its nice to see.
Sherwood speaking like a fan about the players there.
No idea if that's a good thing but its nice to see.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Sherwood is 100% correct. We're ****ing pussies and always have been. We are too nice. We manage to find a way to Spurs it up every season. I'd rather be a team like Everton, they are not quite good enough but that's mainly because of their lack of resources.
Sherwood is 100% correct. We're ****ing pussies and always have been. We are too nice. We manage to find a way to Spurs it up every season. I'd rather be a team like Everton, they are not quite good enough but that's mainly because of their lack of resources.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
I did think "what the ****" when I saw the teamsheet but the fact is we did a job for 55 minutes and Chelsea were poor. We have ZERO creativity without Eriksen and Lamela and that ain't Sherwood's fault is it?
I did think "what the ****" when I saw the teamsheet but the fact is we did a job for 55 minutes and Chelsea were poor. We have ZERO creativity without Eriksen and Lamela and that ain't Sherwood's fault is it?
indospurs
Young-Pyo Lee
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Sherwood is still learning, especially in the big games v the big boys. He needs to find out how each of the lads react to taking these beatings.
But I will keep on banging on about it - we are weak at the back, kaboom and Daws never last, they too often make wrong judgments at critical points in a game. I'll probably never see a partnership like woody and king again at Spurs, but we do need consistency at the back with pairings, injuries obviously hasn't helped - but daws is a million miles from JT as a player and captain.
Sorry, but Daws as captain doesn't fill me with confidence - one of the changes we need to make, even though he didn't do much wrong in the chavs game. Walker's brainfarts don't help too. We need more, much more discipline IMO.
Sherwood is still learning, especially in the big games v the big boys. He needs to find out how each of the lads react to taking these beatings.
But I will keep on banging on about it - we are weak at the back, kaboom and Daws never last, they too often make wrong judgments at critical points in a game. I'll probably never see a partnership like woody and king again at Spurs, but we do need consistency at the back with pairings, injuries obviously hasn't helped - but daws is a million miles from JT as a player and captain.
Sorry, but Daws as captain doesn't fill me with confidence - one of the changes we need to make, even though he didn't do much wrong in the chavs game. Walker's brainfarts don't help too. We need more, much more discipline IMO.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Absolutely loved Sherwood's interview. Told it like it is. Really impressed.
It has to be tempered with the fact that a lot our players are settling in and need to be given time. But at the end of the day I'd be pretty confident if we backed Sherwood to build his own squad he'd do pretty well, alongside given the youth products a chance.
Absolutely loved Sherwood's interview. Told it like it is. Really impressed.
It has to be tempered with the fact that a lot our players are settling in and need to be given time. But at the end of the day I'd be pretty confident if we backed Sherwood to build his own squad he'd do pretty well, alongside given the youth products a chance.
NovTHFC
Helder Postiga
Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach
Cant knock Sherwood for todays game.
After a few early scares we controlled the game, nullified anything Chelsea threw it us & frustrated them.
After Vertonghens howler it all went down hill in about 2 minutes. Never ever a sending off, Kaboul barely touched him & almost an identical situation in the first half with Eto'o on the sideline in the first half when he went down like he was shot, and nothing was given rightfully so.
Very frustrated, top 4 is too far away now. Shift focus on winning Europa league.
Cant knock Sherwood for todays game.
After a few early scares we controlled the game, nullified anything Chelsea threw it us & frustrated them.
After Vertonghens howler it all went down hill in about 2 minutes. Never ever a sending off, Kaboul barely touched him & almost an identical situation in the first half with Eto'o on the sideline in the first half when he went down like he was shot, and nothing was given rightfully so.
Very frustrated, top 4 is too far away now. Shift focus on winning Europa league.