Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

really??? off the top of my head, we played well at Southampton, Swansea, Man Utd and home to Stoke, plus last night against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Scored goals, created chances, won the games

We played well for roughly a 20 minute period in each of the Southampton/Swansea matches. Man Utd and Stoke were good - probably the only two matches we really deserved to win though. Other than that we've faced some very, very poor shooting which has got us out of jail.

See here for an explanation of playing badly but getting points (and the opposite).

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He got it right last night though, but what's so frustrating is that it was so nearly right anyway - there was no need to break it then fix it (other than proving he's different to his predecessor).

Based on your argument that it was apparently 'almost right anyway' you have to say that if we continue this vein of form, he's drastically improved it rather than unfixed then fixed it again.

Agree?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Based on your argument that it was apparently 'almost right anyway' you have to say that if we continue this vein of form, he's drastically improved it rather than unfixed then fixed it again.

Agree?

No, I'd say that Ade has made a massive difference (not an option to a manager he's publicly criticised) and 6 month is the general estimate for players settling in to a new club.

He's broken what was there, put it back and now it's working again.

 

[Libero]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We played well for roughly a 20 minute period in each of the Southampton/Swansea matches. Man Utd and Stoke were good - probably the only two matches we really deserved to win though. Other than that we've faced some very, very poor shooting which has got us out of jail.

See here for an explanation of playing badly but getting points (and the opposite).

Southampton I will give you but I thought that we were well in control of the Swansea game with the exception of a 15 min spell midway through the first half until we got the opening goal.

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We played well for roughly a 20 minute period in each of the Southampton/Swansea matches. Man Utd and Stoke were good - probably the only two matches we really deserved to win though. Other than that we've faced some very, very poor shooting which has got us out of jail.

See here for an explanation of playing badly but getting points (and the opposite).

totally disagree....both the Saints and Swans were on top for about 30 mins of the games but we were the better side overall and could have won by bigger margins too had we converted other chances created.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Southampton I will give you but I thought that we were well in control of the Swansea game with the exception of a 15 min spell midway through the first half until we got the opening goal.

Swansea had more shots than us, more of the ball than us, had the ball in the final third more than us.

That was not the Swansea team that people rightly feared until recently - had they been shooting at all well we'd have lost that.

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Swansea had more shots than us, more of the ball than us, had the ball in the final third more than us.

That was not the Swansea team that people rightly feared until recently - had they been shooting at all well we'd have lost that.

i think you will find that Swansea do that to most sides at home......shots?? i remember lots of long range pot shots from Bony, one of which hit the bar iirc. They didnt really carve us open

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

No, I'd say that Ade has made a massive difference (not an option to a manager he's publicly criticised) and 6 month is the general estimate for players settling in to a new club.

He's broken what was there, put it back and now it's working again.

So you are saying that the style of football we played in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game is the same style we were playing under AVB when it was 'working'?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

i think you will find that Swansea do that to most sides at home......shots?? i remember lots of long range pot shots from Bony, one of which hit the bar iirc. They didnt really carve us open

Wasn't it that game where they should have had a penalty against us?

We were a sorry excuse for a football team for most of the first half and could easily have been a couple down before we scored. We didn't really look like scoring again until they did it for us. After that we took control, but we were pretty fortunate to get to that point.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So you are saying that the style of football we played in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game is the same style we were playing under AVB when it was 'working'?

It's a pretty similar plan, but with the players clicking in the final third, plus Ade. Funny what a bit of patience can bring.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's a pretty similar plan, but with the players clicking in the final third, plus Ade. Funny what a bit of patience can bring.

So you are saying three things here;

1. The only reason TS is doing better than AVB is because he has Ade
2. AVB was correct not to play Ade because of what Ade done
3. We should have had patience with AVB and allowed him to continue

Can you see how all three of these contradict each other?

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

So you are saying three things here;

1. The only reason TS is doing better than AVB is because he has Ade
2. AVB was correct not to play Ade because of what Ade done
3. We should have had patience with AVB and allowed him to continue

Can you see how all three of these contradict each other?

1. One of two reasons (both were stated in the post you replied to).

They only contradict if you value short term success over the long term. Not playing Ade was right for the lesson it showed the rest of the club (not selling Ade was either a mistake by Levy or just a refusal to move because City pay him so much here).

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

1. One of two reasons (both were stated in the post you replied to).

They only contradict if you value short term success over the long term. Not playing Ade was right for the lesson it showed the rest of the club (not selling Ade was either a mistake by Levy or just a refusal to move because City pay him so much here).

Your second reason being the players clicking in the final third, but TS get's no praise for managing to do that pretty much from the get go even though AVB coudln't in all the time he had?

On your second point, I would class qualifying for the CL a fairly good starting point for long term success.

 

[Bullet]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If you watch a match online, at half time and full time they show you about 3 minutes of highlights - every shot from 3 angles, every bit of skill, condensed.

Does anyone have these for every match of the season? It would really help to settle arguments about the key incidents in games.

Obviously we don't have the rights and should not post them here, nor links to them, just interested if anyone has compiled "the season of highlights"

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

1. One of two reasons (both were stated in the post you replied to).

They only contradict if you value short term success over the long term. Not playing Ade was right for the lesson it showed the rest of the club (not selling Ade was either a mistake by Levy or just a refusal to move because City pay him so much here).

It was certainly a mistake going into the season if the manager felt that he couldn't work with him anymore but AVB should have realised that Spurs are not a club that can afford to have an £120k a week asset training with the kids.

I also think that some of AVB's handling of Ade (making him stand on a box and apologise to the squad etc) is as likely to alienate other members of the squad as teach them a lesson. Without knowing the dynamic of the squad it is impossible to say.

Unfortunately, I think that AVB's handling of Ade has shades of him repeating the mistakes he made at Chelsea. As does falling out with Freund, Baldini and Levy.

I suspect that success came a little bit early for him and he would have been better off learning his trade in Portugal for a few more years before moving to England or another major league.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Your second reason being the players clicking in the final third, but TS get's no praise for managing to do that pretty much from the get go even though AVB coudln't in all the time he had?

On your second point, I would class qualifying for the CL a fairly good starting point for long term success.

Pretty much everyone claims that new players take 6 months to adapt to a new country/league/team - I'd say that's a fair amount of time. So I wouldn't expect them to do so in less than that.

Second point - I wouldn't at all. In fact we qualified once and haven't since. Regular qualification has to be the absolute minimum (and even that will leave us a long way from a title challenge) and allowing players like Ade to be more powerful than the manager is not the route to long-term success (unless you have the money to buy your way past that).

 

[Bullet]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Scara - AVB should have punished Adebayor briefly, spoken to him like a man, shook hands, shown the squad that their differences were resolved like men and that both men respected one another and now they move forwards together.

This is what man management is, not just shoving someone off into a corner and ignoring them.

Neither of us know what was really said and how and when, but that is one possible solution that ends up with the best outcome for Spurs the club.

Sometimes to be a great leader you have to do what is best for the team by manipulating the situation to appear like everyone wins and everyone is happy and just be the bigger man.

Sometimes I do this at work, I may not agree but rather than butting heads I will try a different angle and approach some other direction and in the end the originator thinks it was their idea and that they got their way, but in reality I have done what is best for the company and do not need to get the plaudits etc.

 

[Yermiyahu]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It was certainly a mistake going into the season if the manager felt that he couldn't work with him anymore but AVB should have realised that Spurs are not a club that can afford to have an £120k a week asset training with the kids.

I also think that some of AVB's handling of Ade (making him stand on a box and apologise to the squad etc) is as likely to alienate other members of the squad as teach them a lesson. Without knowing the dynamic of the squad it is impossible to say.

Unfortunately, I think that AVB's handling of Ade has shades of him repeating the mistakes he made at Chelsea. As does falling out with Freund, Baldini and Levy.

I suspect that success came a little bit early for him and he would have been better off learning his trade in Portugal for a few more years before moving to England or another major league.

110% This, but the thing is that AVB is gone now, for better or for worse, so let's consign him to history and concentrate on supporting our current coach as we enter a crucial stage of the season.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

See here for an explanation of playing badly but getting points (and the opposite).

Interesting (ish)....

That Shots on Target ratio and PDO thing doesn't really strike a chord with me however.

I think the problem with any stats is that they don't provide any proper context.... We always got a large amount of shots on target under AVB, mainly because we would get the ball, spend 2 or 3 minutes slowly working our way towards the oppositions penalty area and then when it was filled with 10 defensive players be forced into having a shot from outside the area that had very, very little chance of going in.

Equally this whole way of playing made us massively exposed to the counter attack, we would have so many players so far forward that on the rare occasions when the other team got the ball they could easily break in numbers and get in behind us and find themselves with not just a chance but a very good one on one type chance. If looking at stats alone that would probably make us seem really unlucky (lots of shots but few goals scored with not many chances against us but a high percentage of goals conceded).

It stands to reason that any team is likely to convert more of their 'good' chances, this whole PDO thing takes no account of that at all (how many times have you seen Lloris concede from a shot from outside the penalty area for instance?)

I don't think the PDO thing shows that we were lucky/unlucky under Sherwood/AVB, I think it shows how AVBs type of football will make the stattos who haven't seen the game say "Oooh Spurs were unlucky at the weekend - look how much possession/shots/passes/corners/territory they had compared the opposition" Without the full context of all of those high stats being played out in front of the opposition while they were able to get in behind us 3 times in the game and were able to put 1 or 2 of those real chances away.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Interesting (ish)....

That Shots on Target ratio and PDO thing doesn't really strike a chord with me however.

I think the problem with any stats is that they don't provide any proper context.... We always got a large amount of shots on target under AVB, mainly because we would get the ball, spend 2 or 3 minutes slowly working our way towards the oppositions penalty area and then when it was filled with 10 defensive players be forced into having a shot from outside the area that had very, very little chance of going in.

Equally this whole way of playing made us massively exposed to the counter attack, we would have so many players so far forward that on the rare occasions when the other team got the ball they could easily break in numbers and get in behind us and find themselves with not just a chance but a very good one on one type chance. If looking at stats alone that would probably make us seem really unlucky (lots of shots but few goals scored with not many chances against us but a high percentage of goals conceded).

It stands to reason that any team is likely to convert more of their 'good' chances, this whole PDO thing takes no account of that at all (how many times have you seen Lloris concede from a shot from outside the penalty area for instance?)

I don't think the PDO thing shows that we were lucky/unlucky under Sherwood/AVB, I think it shows how AVBs type of football will make the stattos who haven't seen the game say "Oooh Spurs were unlucky at the weekend - look how much possession/shots/passes/corners/territory they had compared the opposition" Without the full context of all of those high stats being played out in front of the opposition while they were able to get in behind us 3 times in the game and were able to put 1 or 2 of those real chances away.

That is a factor, but it's a pretty small one from what I can see. All Premiership teams (over a season) have a PDO pretty close to 1 - good ones a little over, **** ones a little below.

They all have varied styles, varied chances, etc but they are all within a range. The PDO Sherwood has had is something that even Barca could only dream of - it's just ridiculous. As the author of the blog said, either Timmeh is the greatest manager ever (by a huge margin) or he's been incredibly lucky. I know which I think it is.