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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Muttley said:
What gets me is the narratives. An entire campaign for Ange that he should get minimally 2 years and then a further campaign that he deserved the 3rd because of the trophy. Then Frank joins and the equivalent narrative becomes that he should get this season. Some are sneaking up to 18 months but nobody seems to be in the 2-3 years camp.

It's starting to feel like a double standard.
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It is, some are bitter that Ange was sacked. Some don't see the point of sacking Ange to bring in a manager of Frank's experience and stature and some based on what they've seen so far would rather watch the failing football of Ange rather than the middling football of Frank.

Also I'll keep saying it, deep down even if they don't want to admit it, most really think this is a top 4 capable side and were expecting closer to that level in results and performances.

You're probably aware that i don't really rate the squad and haven't for years so for me I don't find any of this that surprisingly, it's actually what I expect at least in terms of results. Performances I was hoping for better but it's early in his reign, if you take off the Spurs tinted glasses I'm not really sure their expectations were realistic.
 
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Bishop said:
It is, some are bitter that Ange was sacked. Some don't see the point of sacking Ange to bring in a manager of Frank's experience and stature and some based on what they've seen so far would rather watch the failing football of Ange rather than the middling football of Frank.

Also I'll keep saying it, deep down even if they don't want to admit it they most really think this is a top 4 capable side and were expecting closer to that level in results and performances.

Your probably aware that i don't really rate the squad and haven't for years so for me I don't find any of this that surprisingly it's actually what I expect at least in terms of results. Performances I was hoping for better but it's early in his reign, if you take off the Spurs tinted glasses I'm not really sure their expectations were realistic.
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I only think we're a possible top five team because those around us are so unpredictable.
Liverpool, Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and man utd are all in a similar place to us.
It's a weak league at the moment, Poch and redknapp best sides would be at worst third in this league.
 
glasgowspur said:
I only think we're a possible top five team because those around us are so unpredictable.
Liverpool, Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and man utd are all in a similar place to us.
It's a weak league at the moment, Poch and redknapp best sides would be at worst third in this league.
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Their best teams. 100%

For us to be top 5 every one else needs to be kinda brick. I think at our best we aren't as good as the teams you mention.
 
harr1984 said:
We had Kulu, Maddison, Solanke plus a shed load of otbers out at points last season - at any point in time we are going to have 'when player x,y and z returns' conversations. The point is having added Muani,Palinha, Simons and Kudus the squad is not in a worse position than last season when apparently it wasn't the squad that was the issue,,,,
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I disagree; imho we are in a significantly weaker position squad wise. I don't think we had all 3 of Kulu, Madders and Solanke out at the same time last season certainly not for prolonged periods. I think someone posted earlier how many goals those three alone contributed last season. To add to that, TF is now also trying to bed in three new players in those positions with, as I say, 2 players have not played in the PL before. I can see Xavi starting to become more influential, while Kudus is a raw talent who needs more work on when to pass rather than take on his man. In other words neither are the finished article like say an Eze or a MGW might have been. As for Muani, he's been really unfortunate but I think we will see more from him towards the latter half of the season.

So yes, on paper, we have improved the squad. The reality though is that we are actually in a much worse position attacking wise until we get some of those injured players back. A point stressed by TF in several interviews. I am inclined to listen to him because he doesn't appear to be the whinging type.

Now could we be doing better attacking wise? Probably. But I'm not the coach having to deal with a weaker attack currently than last season while the games are coming in thick and fast. And TF is still eeking out some wins and ok results in both PL and CL.
 
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Robspur12 said:
I disagree; imho we are in a significantly weaker position squad wise. I don't think we had all 3 of Kulu, Madders and Solanke out at the same time last season certainly not for prolonged periods. I think someone posted earlier how many goals those three alone contributed last season. To add to that, TF is now also trying to bed in three new players in those positions with, as I say, 2 players have not played in the PL before. I can see Xavi starting to become more influential, while Kudus is a raw talent who needs more work on when to pass rather than take on his man. In other words neither are the finished article like say an Eze or a MGW might have been. As for Muani, he's been really unfortunate but I think we will see more from him towards the latter half of the season.

So yes, on paper, we have improved the squad. The reality though is that we are actually in a much worse position attacking wise until we get some of those injured players back. A point stressed by TF in several interviews. I am inclined to listen to him because he doesn't appear to be the whinging type.

Now could we be doing better attacking wise? Probably. But I'm not the coach having to deal with a weaker attack currently than last season while the games are coming in thick and fast. And TF is still eeking out some wins and ok results in both PL and CL.
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Fair play mate, and whilst I disagree I don't think I'm far from agreement from you and others.

The only negative for me is the football has been poor that is all I've said and will continue to say for as long as it continues. Does he deserve time? Yes, I'm still hopeful he will turn it into better. Has he had players missing? Yes, and hopefully that will help, but all of our managers are dealt this hand. Does he talk a good game? Yes, and I like listening to him. But I learnt a long time ago what a manager says in the media is meaningless, the only evidence is what transmits on the pitch.

The funny thing is, I'm still hopeful/positive for the longer term with Frank - but each time we play poorly I'm going to say so. I'm not expecting that much, but I truly believe whilst we need better players we can play better football than we have done. All I'd like to see in the shorter term is some evidence of attacking patterns/plans rather than long ball football. In Frank we trust.....
 
Muttley said:
I think we have a mildly stronger squad than after the Jan window last year as we came out of the injury crisis. It would clearly be stronger with Kulu and Solanke in it as they are established first teamers. Madds is anoth big loss. We shouldn't dismiss the impact Bissouma had in our winning a trophy run, or the mid season performances of Dragusin. Our best box defender last season. Biss for me was our best player in the last 3 rounds of the EL. He certainly has more balanced attributes for a partnership with Palhinha when compared to Bents. He has often driven Brighton or Spurs forward and been in destroying mode in the middle of the park. We also had some good contributions from Tel since joining on loan las Jan. These things were already in place.

It's these little things that make the difference.

Except for Palhinha, I've not really seen any of the newbies backfill what we had from the players that have vacated the positions.
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Kudus and Palhinha have obviously made the biggest impact so far.

No doubt Maddison, Solanke and Kulusevski are big misses for us. Not denying the impact of injuries. But compared to last season I don't think the injury problems overall have been worse.

Squad, disregarding injuries, clearly stronger. Injuries a bit better than the injury crisis period last season, but perhaps worse than the periods before and after that injury crisis?
 
harr1984 said:
Fair play mate, and whilst I disagree I don't think I'm far from agreement from you and others.

The only negative for me is the football has been poor that is all I've said and will continue to say for as long as it continues. Does he deserve time? Yes, I'm still hopeful he will turn it into better. Has he had players missing? Yes, and hopefully that will help, but all of our managers are dealt this hand. Does he talk a good game? Yes, and I like listening to him. But I learnt a long time ago what a manager says in the media is meaningless, the only evidence is what transmits on the pitch.

The funny thing is, I'm still hopeful/positive for the longer term with Frank - but each time we play poorly I'm going to say so. I'm not expecting that much, but I truly believe whilst we need better players we can play better football than we have done. All I'd like to see in the shorter term is some evidence of attacking patterns/plans rather than long ball football. In Frank we trust.....
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I'm not with you on the messages to media piece being meaningless. A footballer manager represents the brand of a football club and is the main communication vehicle for their employers. How they carry themselves and the things also represents their own personal brand. How they answer questions on football related matters gives a glimpse of their abilities. What is meaningless is a lot of the media narratives back the other direction about our club.

You probably know where I'm going with this but we've just made a major upgrade in this area. At least, I hope. Signs are good so far that the piece we control is being managed better as we've got rid of the maverick.
 
harr1984 said:
It was effective at the start of the season when the players are all giving that extra bit for a new manager and the opposition are unsure of what the plan will be. Now teams have seen how we play, it's not been effective and easy to negate.

Yes it's not a big enough sample size to make definitive conclusions either way, but it's not something to ignore either....
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Sounds familiar.

Does this kind of shutdown not happen to other teams?
 
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Robspur12 said:
I disagree; imho we are in a significantly weaker position squad wise. I don't think we had all 3 of Kulu, Madders and Solanke out at the same time last season certainly not for prolonged periods. I think someone posted earlier how many goals those three alone contributed last season. To add to that, TF is now also trying to bed in three new players in those positions with, as I say, 2 players have not played in the PL before. I can see Xavi starting to become more influential, while Kudus is a raw talent who needs more work on when to pass rather than take on his man. In other words neither are the finished article like say an Eze or a MGW might have been. As for Muani, he's been really unfortunate but I think we will see more from him towards the latter half of the season.

So yes, on paper, we have improved the squad. The reality though is that we are actually in a much worse position attacking wise until we get some of those injured players back. A point stressed by TF in several interviews. I am inclined to listen to him because he doesn't appear to be the whinging type.

Now could we be doing better attacking wise? Probably. But I'm not the coach having to deal with a weaker attack currently than last season while the games are coming in thick and fast. And TF is still eeking out some wins and ok results in both PL and CL.
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Yeah, we weren't without those 3 for sustained periods last season. We were without several other key players for sustained periods though. We have players to settle in this season, but we also had that last season.

We have been eeking out some wins and ok results. I'd argue we've been somewhat lucky in that regard. If not for that luck results probably wouldn't have looked ok. Is that eeking out of results sustainable? What happens if we hit a run of bad luck on the pitch before we improve our performances?

We're 16th in xG from open play in the PL this season if this source is to be trusted: https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/open-play-xg-by-team-in-premier-league

That will also include counter attacks who we have at least at times been competent at.

I get that we're not going to be exactly peak Barcelona here, I get that we're missing key players. But for uncomfortably long periods of time this season we've looked rather clueless with the ball in our team. Are our players that bad?
 
braineclipse said:
Yeah, we weren't without those 3 for sustained periods last season. We were without several other key players for sustained periods though. We have players to settle in this season, but we also had that last season.

We have been eeking out some wins and ok results. I'd argue we've been somewhat lucky in that regard. If not for that luck results probably wouldn't have looked ok. Is that eeking out of results sustainable? What happens if we hit a run of bad luck on the pitch before we improve our performances?

We're 16th in xG from open play in the PL this season if this source is to be trusted: https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/open-play-xg-by-team-in-premier-league

That will also include counter attacks who we have at least at times been competent at.

I get that we're not going to be exactly peak Barcelona here, I get that we're missing key players. But for uncomfortably long periods of time this season we've looked rather clueless with the ball in our team. Are our players that bad?
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Yes. 🤣

Not completely but yes.
 
Muttley said:
I'm not with you on the messages to media piece being meaningless. A footballer manager represents the brand of a football club and is the main communication vehicle for their employers. How they carry themselves and the things also represents their own personal brand. How they answer questions on football related matters gives a glimpse of their abilities. What is meaningless is a lot of the media narratives back the other direction about our club.

You probably know where I'm going with this but we've just made a major upgrade in this area. At least, I hope. Signs are good so far that the piece we control is being managed better as we've got rid of the maverick.
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I think meaningless in the sense it doesn't matter how good someone is at the media side of things if it doesn't transmit to performance on the pitch. But really good hearing your side of things as completely different to how I think on the subject :)....
 
Bishop said:
Their best teams. 100%

For us to be top 5 every one else needs to be kinda brick. I think at our best we aren't as good as the teams you mention.
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I think most of them are kinda brick, just a bit less brick than us.
Villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine especially are much like us imo, real swings up and down. If any of us three put a decent run of form together they would really climb the league.
 
Robspur12 said:
I disagree; imho we are in a significantly weaker position squad wise. I don't think we had all 3 of Kulu, Madders and Solanke out at the same time last season certainly not for prolonged periods. I think someone posted earlier how many goals those three alone contributed last season. To add to that, TF is now also trying to bed in three new players in those positions with, as I say, 2 players have not played in the PL before. I can see Xavi starting to become more influential, while Kudus is a raw talent who needs more work on when to pass rather than take on his man. In other words neither are the finished article like say an Eze or a MGW might have been. As for Muani, he's been really unfortunate but I think we will see more from him towards the latter half of the season.

So yes, on paper, we have improved the squad. The reality though is that we are actually in a much worse position attacking wise until we get some of those injured players back. A point stressed by TF in several interviews. I am inclined to listen to him because he doesn't appear to be the whinging type.

Now could we be doing better attacking wise? Probably. But I'm not the coach having to deal with a weaker attack currently than last season while the games are coming in thick and fast. And TF is still eeking out some wins and ok results in both PL and CL.
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The goal and assist numbers do include where they have assisted each other
We also attacked last year as the only way of playing. Those numbers would never be achieve able in this set up even if we had Kane and son back
And as I’ve said, the manager should have a plan to create without the long term injured because he has never had them available to play in his team
 
harr1984 said:
Our 'expected position' in the league table was 16th a few weeks ago and it wouldn't have got any better since. The underlying data is poor, and it tends to catch up with you even if we are doing 'ok' in 9th.

And our defence has started looking poor leaking goals again (after a generous start to the season we now have a more difficult period of fixtures) so we don't even have the 'At least the base is solid' argument to fall back on anymore...
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What I don't get is that things like underlying data are dismissed when people want and used when they like.

I saw many occasions last season when data was used and posters were told how it's not valid,

Are we judging on underlying data or the data as it reads. Because setting the terms of the conversation would go along way
 
Oh, boy, more snooze fests incoming. I don't think I'm watching tonight.

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fernadez said:
What I don't get is that things like underlying data are dismissed when people want and used when they like.

I saw many occasions last season when data was used and posters were told how it's not valid,

Are we judging on underlying data or the data as it reads. Because setting the terms of the conversation would go along way
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Absolutely mate. I think whether we like to admit or not, we all to some extent highlight stats that support our argument and look to dismiss those that don't. I doubt that will ever change :D

My bug bear is things that were dismissed last season eg player quality and injuries are now being used as the excuse for what IMO has been tough to watch to say the least football (which comes back to what you are saying really). Its obviously pointless to get in a back and forth about it as we can see from this thread. I think as always the truth lies somewhere inbetween. I think the squad still requires plenty of surgery, but Frank needs to improve the style too (and yes given time he can/will). As far as I can see people have only offered criticism based on performances and what needs to improve, rather than a more aggressive 'This is rubbish, sack him' type comments (bar one or two).

I've only been critical of the football, I like everything else about Frank. I'm hoping he can improve the attacking side because I don't think it's unreasonable to say it hasn't been good enough regardless of the situation of the squad. I don't think that's an unfair assessment and just hoping to see some signs in the coming weeks of small improvements at least....
 
Daisuk said:
Oh, boy, more snooze fests incoming. I don't think I'm watching tonight.

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I honestly think the best we can hope for is a more efficient version of what we currently are, I just dont envisage Frank will switch up to the extent some believe he will.

Will just have to wait and see what that looks like over time, and with a more focal point like Solanke up front and the return of Kulu it hopefully all knits together a bit better....
 
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