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The youth players/on-loan thread 2016-17

Very uninspiring lineup from Ugo, 9 of the starting 11 have been playing in defensive positions at least semi-regularly over the past 12 months.
 
@Yoof are we currently lacking attacking players or has Ehiogu been fielding teams like this out of choice?
 
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Our reserves / PL2 team (call them what you want) aren't very good nowadays are they? Guess we've shipped out a few years' worth of players and now waiting for another bunch to come through, such as Edwards, Bennetts etc
 
Cochise said:
@Yoof are we currently lacking attacking players or has Ehiogu been fielding teams like this out of choice?
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A Bit of both, I think Ugo has been better with his selections this season but for some reason he's gone back to the Walkes in CM experiment which has proven to be beneficial to no one, presumably just to add size and athleticism to our midfield. Cy Goddard doesn't have either but what he does have is technical/passing/creative ability, something the players around him would surely benefit more from. I don't know what the deal is with the U18s but as for attacking players the likes of Shashoua, Bennetts and Sterling would all be better options for this side than those currently being picked, Oakley-Boothe despite only being 16 is also a better player than most in this squad so should be involved more. Like I said, maybe Ugo's being instructed not to pick those players so he can only work with what's available to him but even then I think we could field a team that's a little more expansive than one that consisted of 7 defensive-minded players, one winger who has played much of the past year or so at full back, Carroll and Harrison.

AdamB said:
Our reserves / PL2 team (call them what you want) aren't very good nowadays are they? Guess we've shipped out a few years' worth of players and now waiting for another bunch to come through, such as Edwards, Bennetts etc
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They're not the best, no, but we do have to remember that the best of them (CCV, Winks, Onomah) have been promoted to the 1st team so it shouldn't be forgotten that this group has produced some talented lads, I imagine that Edwards will join them as being full-time with the first team once he's back fit too. I still consider KWP to be in the same bracket as those mentioned but Poch seemingly isn't as keen. There are better players coming through thankfully so in a year or two we should look a little stronger at this level.
 
Overall team strength in the reserve league is of little to no importance as long as we're developing players and they're stepping up to becoming useful (and even excellent) first team players.

A centre back playing in midfield might not make the team stronger, but it might still be beneficial to the development of that player.

Should also remember that while being without CCV, Winks and Onomah for most of the season there's also been the Youth CL competition for our lads taking away some focus and presumably some players.

I think most of the academy and reserve squad players are at an age where most of their learning happens in training, not in the reserve/U18/youth CL games.

Edit: Or to put it differently. With the combined player development knowledge of Pochettino and McDermott I feel absolutely confident that if there is a problem with Ugo's team selections in terms of player development he will be gone before it becomes an actual problem.
 
braineclipse said:
Overall team strength in the reserve league is of little to no importance as long as we're developing players and they're stepping up to becoming useful (and even excellent) first team players.

A centre back playing in midfield might not make the team stronger, but it might still be beneficial to the development of that player.

Should also remember that while being without CCV, Winks and Onomah for most of the season there's also been the Youth CL competition for our lads taking away some focus and presumably some players.

I think most of the academy and reserve squad players are at an age where most of their learning happens in training, not in the reserve/U18/youth CL games.

Edit: Or to put it differently. With the combined player development knowledge of Pochettino and McDermott I feel absolutely confident that if there is a problem with Ugo's team selections in terms of player development he will be gone before it becomes an actual problem.
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Even if we for a second say Walkes is individually benefiting from playing in a different position, is it worth it when it's potentially harming the development of five or six others around him? I've said over and over again that I don't care about the results but the overall strength of the team is at least somewhat important in helping our best players to progress. Do you think that putting Edwards for example into a struggling team surrounded by defenders and little for him to bounce off is as good for his development as a player than if he were surrounded by more like-minded and talented players? I can't agree with the downplaying of the importance that actual games play in their growth as players, for me games and training go together. You [try to] put into practice what you've learnt in training into the game and what you take from the game you then work on in training. The higher the standard of opposition the more we'll learn from games, if(and it's looking likely currently) that we get relegated from the PL2 we'll then be playing against, what are in theory, inferior players next year. As I said, by and large I think Ugo has done a decent job and I suspect the younger players are being held back for now before starting afresh next season but the current crop aren't up to previous standards whatever way you slice it.
 
Yoof said:
Even if we for a second say Walkes is individually benefiting from playing in a different position, is it worth it when it's potentially harming the development of five or six others around him? I've said over and over again that I don't care about the results but the overall strength of the team is at least somewhat important in helping our best players to progress. Do you think that putting Edwards for example into a struggling team surrounded by defenders and little for him to bounce off is as good for his development as a player than if he were surrounded by more like-minded and talented players? I can't agree with the downplaying of the importance that actual games play in their growth as players, for me games and training go together. You [try to] put into practice what you've learnt in training into the game and what you take from the game you then work on in training. The higher the standard of opposition the more we'll learn from games, if(and it's looking likely currently) that we get relegated from the PL2 we'll then be playing against, what are in theory, inferior players next year. As I said, by and large I think Ugo has done a decent job and I suspect the younger players are being held back for now before starting afresh next season but the current crop aren't up to previous standards whatever way you slice it.
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I actually think there's some value in young players also playing for teams that struggle. Not that we should actively seek that out, but that happening from time to time is nothing to worry about for me.

Relegation would be a slight worry as you say as the benefit of coming up against (often older) and better players is probably significant.

The "current crop" includes CCV, Winks and Onomah - all very much right in the PL reserve league age group. If taking them out leaves no one else in that age group ready to make the step up I don't see the big issue. Though I'm not even sure that's the case. The next age group (current 16-18 year olds) seems to have some fantastic talent in it too.

How many players from a 2-3 year age span do you expect us to develop from the academy into actual first team players? 2-3 players seems ambitious enough to me. If Winks, CCV and Onomah continue their development in the first team squad there's a good chance we'll reach that with the "current crop".
 
Yoof said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/803345081168199680

Shilow Tracey with both goals.
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Nice to see him scoring, have not heard much about him since he signed, how is he doing?

What are your views or opinions on the likely hood of Poch loaning out some of our youngsters if we dont qualify for europa league. I think if we are out of Europe altogether then players like Winks, Onomah and Carter-Vickers are likely to get very little game time and would do better getting league football then just training with the first team.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Nice to see him scoring, have not heard much about him since he signed, how is he doing?

What are your views or opinions on the likely hood of Poch loaning out some of our youngsters if we dont qualify for europa league. I think if we are out of Europe altogether then players like Winks, Onomah and Carter-Vickers are likely to get very little game time and would do better getting league football then just training with the first team.
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He's been a bit-part player really, never truly established himself as 1st choice in any of the age groups. His play-style and physique are strikingly similar to Sissoko, well to me at least.

I don't think Poch will loan them out and it would be quite the U-turn if he did, he's a bit of a control freak and doesn't want anyone else putting their own stamp on them. Of the three I'm most worried about Onomah, he's a big talent but he's in danger of stagnating and is probably now further away from getting game-time now than he was a year ago, same goes for KWP who is seemingly now getting lost amongst the pack. I think all of them would benefit from loans but it just isn't how Poch works. On the flip side I expect Edwards to break through pretty quickly, he's still injured at the moment and needs building up gradually but I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing a major part for us in the not too distant future.

Also, one last thing. Fans have this idea of using the Europa as development for the youngsters and I'm all for it but it needs to be done right. There's no point just chucking them all in together or in some half-baked side. I'd like to see Poch go full-strength but supplement it with one or two, perhaps three, young players. Give them the chance to thrive amongst a settled and quality outfit.
 
Yoof said:
He's been a bit-part player really, never truly established himself as 1st choice in any of the age groups. His play-style and physique are strikingly similar to Sissoko, well to me at least.

I don't think Poch will loan them out and it would be quite the U-turn if he did, he's a bit of a control freak and doesn't want anyone else putting their own stamp on them. Of the three I'm most worried about Onomah, he's a big talent but he's in danger of stagnating and is probably now further away from getting game-time now than he was a year ago, same goes for KWP who is seemingly now getting lost amongst the pack. I think all of them would benefit from loans but it just isn't how Poch works. On the flip side I expect Edwards to break through pretty quickly, he's still injured at the moment and needs building up gradually but I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing a major part for us in the not too distant future.

Also, one last thing. Fans have this idea of using the Europa as development for the youngsters and I'm all for it but it needs to be done right. There's no point just chucking them all in together or in some half-baked side. I'd like to see Poch go full-strength but supplement it with one or two, perhaps three, young players. Give them the chance to thrive amongst a settled and quality outfit.
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I totally agree. I think Poch would have if one or two extra were available vs Liverpool. I hope we make EL and he mixes well in those games. As you say, i think the youngsters learn best when they have many more senior players around them who are on their game and know more about how to operate in Poch's system.
 
Yoof said:
He's been a bit-part player really, never truly established himself as 1st choice in any of the age groups. His play-style and physique are strikingly similar to Sissoko, well to me at least.

I don't think Poch will loan them out and it would be quite the U-turn if he did, he's a bit of a control freak and doesn't want anyone else putting their own stamp on them. Of the three I'm most worried about Onomah, he's a big talent but he's in danger of stagnating and is probably now further away from getting game-time now than he was a year ago, same goes for KWP who is seemingly now getting lost amongst the pack. I think all of them would benefit from loans but it just isn't how Poch works. On the flip side I expect Edwards to break through pretty quickly, he's still injured at the moment and needs building up gradually but I wouldn't be surprised if he was playing a major part for us in the not too distant future.

Also, one last thing. Fans have this idea of using the Europa as development for the youngsters and I'm all for it but it needs to be done right. There's no point just chucking them all in together or in some half-baked side. I'd like to see Poch go full-strength but supplement it with one or two, perhaps three, young players. Give them the chance to thrive amongst a settled and quality outfit.
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I remember about 15 years ago reading an article by someone connected with Juventus that they had a deliberate policy of promoting two youth players to the first team squad a season, any more then that and they would not get enough game time to become a proper part of the squad. I would love to see us do something similar, in 3 years time we would have 6 players from the youth team with 50 + appearances each and saved a load of money, of course they have to be good enough in the first place.

Really wish Poch would give the players a chance to go out and get some league matches, I honestly do not think Kane would have come through had he not gone out on loan so many times, seeing as Poch loves Kane you would think he would look at his history and see it can be of benefit.
 
I think the problem is finding the right sort of club for the player and where they will get game time. Too many managers are under pressure to either get promoted or avoid relegation to take a chance on youth players no matter how good they are and have no value to their club if they improve as an individual.
 
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