The Goon Thread

[Baleforce]

All true, but do you not accept that Arsenal's self-inflicted cycle is:

A) hilarious, especially when you think of how roosterily they used to dismiss us
B) gives us hope that as long as Wenger is there the gap between us doesn't get as wide as it perhaps should (given their resources and income generation)?

yes to A, I'm with Neymar on Wenger though, I think he's the difference, he leaves and they drop to mid table overnight imo, he's a massive cog in their wheel

 

[Neymar]

Oh..you as well eh?
Are Monaco one of them? Are Dortmund one of them? Are Shaktar one of them? Are Schalke one of them?

none of them are. thats why they are all just flash in the pans. and its precisely because they arent as rich as arsenal that they dont have the longevity that arsenal have had in this tournament over the past couple of decades.

deportivo, valencia, roma, panathanikos, galatasaray, porto, us etc etc, have all finished above arsenal at some point in the champions league over the past couple of decades. but just like dortmund, shakhtar, schalke etc, they dont have the extensive champions league history that arsenal have. basically, given the high number of teams of this relative size in the champions league (compared to arsenal), its no surprise that some of them finish above arsenal in the champions league every year. just like its no surprise that arsenal have finished above man utd, real madrid, barcelona, ac milan etc etc too at times.

this is a knockout competition, and just like people always do in football, too many wrong conclusions are being made in the heat of the moment.

 

[Mumorn]

if Wenger leaves, they'll push on. They will get someone in who will see their flaws and get them fighting at the top of the table. They have the philosophy in place, only an idiot would get rid of that.

 

[glorygloryeze]

none of them are. thats why they are all just flash in the pans. and its precisely because they arent as rich as arsenal that they dont have the longevity that arsenal have had in this tournament over the past couple of decades.

deportivo, valencia, roma, panathanikos, galatasaray, porto, us etc etc, have all finished above arsenal at some point in the champions league over the past couple of decades. but just like dortmund, shakhtar, schalke etc, they dont have the extensive champions league history that arsenal have. basically, given the high number of teams of this relative size in the champions league (compared to arsenal), its no surprise that some of them finish above arsenal in the champions league every year. just like its no surprise that arsenal have finished above man utd, real madrid, barcelona, ac milan etc etc too at times.

this is a knockout competition, and just like people always do in football, too many wrong conclusions are being made in the heat of the moment.

I think Arsenal are going backwards in the CL, despite their spending. The last 5 years shows this.
If you disagree, i'd like you to show me how and why you think this is NOT the case..

 

[glorygloryeze]

yes to A, I'm with Neymar on Wenger though, I think he's the difference, he leaves and they drop to mid table overnight imo, he's a massive cog in their wheel

Nope. There are problems of a tactical and planning nature that even an average manager would address with the financial resources they have.
The ratio of attacking midfielders/strikers to defenders/defensive midfielders show that and it's not like Wenger has inherited this imbalance from somebody else

 

[Mumorn]

whereas we...

fail to sign players in the positions we need, get raped by top and bottom clubs, don't do well against anyone, are happy with EL, haven't won a major trophy since 1984, make up the numbers in the secondary European tournament?

things are what they are and we are certainly improving but let's not forget that for a large part of our history we were much higher up the ladder than we are now

linked to star, fail to sign, sign fancy name in position not needed, we can win the league, end of september and league hopes dashed, we'll struggle for top four, wenger out, easy draw in cl this is our year, wenger in, we're gonna win a trophy, knocked out of everything by april, we'll do it next year.

 

[Neymar]

I think Arsenal are going backwards in the CL, despite their spending. The last 5 years shows this.
If you disagree, i'd like you to show me how and why you think this is NOT the case..

i think arsenal are quite likely to push on in ucl simply because they will piggy back off the success of the prem.

i think the prem will become even more successful globally in the next few years (relative to the other top european leagues). this will mean that there will be more money in our league, and more lucrative sponsorship opportunities for our clubs (especially the elite ones), relative to other european leagues. this will naturally mean that our clubs should be able to recruit better players, and have more success on the continent.

 

[glorygloryeze]

i think arsenal are quite likely to push on in ucl simply because they will piggy back off the success of the prem.

i think the prem will become even more successful globally in the next few years (relative to the other top european leagues). this will mean that there will be more money in our league, and more lucrative sponsorship opportunities for our clubs (especially the elite ones), relative to other european leagues. this will naturally mean that our clubs should be able to recruit better players, and have more success on the continent.

You haven't really answered my question with regards to the last 5 years...but however, everything you say about why you think the will push on by piggybacking onto the PL global (financial success) has been the situation for the last 5 years anyway so why haven't they pushed on? And why have they gone backwards?
Protecting Wenger and his tactical acumen again i see..

 

[Neymar]

Nope. There are problems of a tactical and planning nature that even an average manager would address with the financial resources they have.
The ratio of attacking midfielders/strikers to defenders/defensive midfielders show that and it's not like Wenger has inherited this imbalance from somebody else

the problem with this "tactical argument" that people put against wenger is that, i think arsenal's results over the past decade or so shows that its either totally wrong, or its a very very minor problem.

arsenal's average league finish over the past decade is largely reflective of the finances that they have invested into their playing squad. so surely if there is a lack of tactical nouse, then there are a lot of managers who are even worse. and also, the teams that have won the league over the past decade; man utd, chelsea, city have spent considerably more than arsenal. so to me it seems obvious that the owners of arsenal dont beleive that they will see a return on investment if they were to build a side comparable to those three, and so are happy for wenger not to do so. thats the crux of it imo

 

[Neymar]

You haven't really answered my question with regards to the last 5 years...but however, everything you say about why you think the will push on by piggybacking onto the PL global (financial success) has been the situation for the last 5 years anyway so why haven't they pushed on? And why have they gone backwards?
Protecting Wenger and his tactical acumen again i see..

ive already answered this. sample size

 

[glorygloryeze]

the problem with this "tactical argument" that people put against wenger is that, i think arsenal's results over the past decade or so shows that its either totally wrong, or its a very very minor problem.

arsenal's average league finish over the past decade is largely reflective of the finances that they have invested into their playing squad. so surely if there is a lack of tactical nouse, then there are a lot of managers who are even worse. and also, the teams that have won the league over the past decade; man utd, chelsea, city have spent considerably more than arsenal. so to me it seems obvious that the owners of arsenal dont beleive that they will see a return on investment if they were to build a side comparable to those three, and so are happy for wenger not to do so. thats the crux of it imo

You can go on and on about league placings. I have mainly focussed on their CL performances as that is where money and tactics meet in natural matrimony, but the fact you ignore their lack of progress in the CL (where Wenger is shown to be a bit meh when he meets those who mostly have lesser finances) and revert to PL comparisons shows how you are running out of your usual excuses for Wenger
Ah well..

 

[glorygloryeze]

ive already answered this. sample size

Rubbish! 5 years for a team that qualifies EVERY year is more than enough. If you prefer we could take ten years and compare with clubs that make it as frequently as well if you like but i think you know this will prove my point anyhow

 

[Baleforce]

Nope. There are problems of a tactical and planning nature that even an average manager would address with the financial resources they have.
The ratio of attacking midfielders/strikers to defenders/defensive midfielders show that and it's not like Wenger has inherited this imbalance from somebody else

Which team have they finished behind in the PL which didn't have better players? They have only been bested by truly exceptional players at the top of their game, a Suarez, a Bale, a player with the potential to win the PL single handedly whose club could not manage to keep for long enough to do so.

They don't have the money of Chelsea, City of United, the best they can achieve every year is 4th, when did they last fail?

 

[jurgen lineker]

we've been one of the richest teams in the europa league over the past few years. yet we've never won the tournament. does that means always lost? the same probably applies to a load of other teams.

Depends on how seriously we take the Europa League. Arsenal certainly take the Champions League seriously.

If the Europa League is seen as a priority (considering some of the line ups that we have fielded i'm not entirely sure that it is) then it's more so a failure for Levy than it is for the for the managers that have been placed in charge, as they have not been gifted much of a chance to win the competition. Not sure that we've had any manager that has had two attempts at winning the Europa? I could be wrong. Wenger has had 20 years, 20 years, big difference.

It's a failure, no two ways about it, particularly when you consider some of the squads that Wenger has had at his disposal over the years and the amount of money that he has spent.

 

[Baleforce]

linked to star, fail to sign, sign fancy name in position not needed, we can win the league, end of september and league hopes dashed, we'll struggle for top four, wenger out, easy draw in cl this is our year, wenger in, we're gonna win a trophy, knocked out of everything by april, we'll do it next year.

Are they reasonable expectations, the PL is a contest to see who can pay the most in wages, that's not arsenal, they have no place winning the league, that people consider them in the conversation is an achievement, they certainly shouldn't win the CL, not with the wages spent by their English betters or Barca and Madrid, what else is there, they consistently hit par.

 

[Neymar]

You can go on and on about league placings. I have mainly focussed on their CL performances as that is where money and tactics meet in natural matrimony, but the fact you ignore their lack of progress in the CL (where Wenger is shown to be a bit meh when he meets those who mostly have lesser finances) and revert to PL comparisons shows how you are running out of your usual excuses for Wenger
Ah well..

i revert to the pl, and also group stages of the ucl because thats where the sample size is. in contrast, you are basing most of your opinions on 10 games.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Which team have they finished behind in the PL which didn't have better players? They have only been bested by truly exceptional players at the top of their game, a Suarez, a Bale, a player with the potential to win the PL single handedly whose club could not manage to keep for long enough to do so.

They don't have the money of Chelsea, City of United, the best they can achieve every year is 4th, when did they last fail?

Liverpool last year. I know you and others will mention Suarez, but Suarez was not the only reason Liverpool competed for the title last year. He missed a load of games at the beginning and they were still very good. Rodgers tactically outwitted Wenger in the grand scheme of things and may also do so this year.
But my point is that in CL for all the money they spend and have spent they should not be getting knocked out in round 16 every year for five years.
Even we went further in that competition FFS. They get easy groups and mostly finish second often leading to tough draws as well due to Wenger's tactical ineptness.
Even this year they got a VERY favourable draw and still roostered-up!

 

[glorygloryeze]

i revert to the pl, and also group stages of the ucl because thats where the sample size is. in contrast, you are basing most of your opinions on 10 games.

No...i have based it on group stages as well!
Go ahead use the group stages AND the round of 16 knockout stages of the last 5 years to show me how Arsene Wenger and Arsenal are 'doing about par'.
In fact, why don't you go back further to show this

 

[Baleforce]

Liverpool last year. I know you and others will mention Suarez, but Suarez was not the only reason Liverpool competed for the title last year. He missed a load of games at the beginning and they were still very good. Rodgers tactically outwitted Wenger in the grand scheme of things and may also do so this year.
But my point is that in CL for all the money they spend and have spent they should not be getting knocked out in round 16 every year for five years.
Even we went further in that competition FFS. They get easy groups and mostly finish second often leading to tough draws as well due to Wenger's tactical ineptness.
Even this year they got a VERY favourable draw and still roostered-up!

Suarez was in exceptional form last year, yes they started well but he was crucial over the season. This may just be me, but I don't think Rodgers has ever tactically outwitted anyone in his life, he is incredibly lucky though, as last night should attest.

For the money arsenal spend they should get knocked out of the round of 16 every year, that's the ticket they buy.

We went further because we had Bale, a once in a generation talent, they have not had a player of that ability and influence in a long long time, some would say Henry (who got them to a final), others would say you'd have to go back to the likes of Overmars or even Brady.

It's not tactical ineptness, it's individual mistakes, where criticism of wenger is totally valid imo is with his goal keepers, here he is clueless, they had a decent one when he joined and he has repeatedly downgraded at every available opportunity.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Suarez was in exceptional form last year, yes they started well but he was crucial over the season. This may just be me, but I don't think Rodgers has ever tactically outwitted anyone in his life, he is incredibly lucky though, as last night should attest.

For the money arsenal spend they should get knocked out of the round of 16 every year, that's the ticket they buy.

We went further because we had Bale, a once in a generation talent, they have not had a player of that ability and influence in a long long time, some would say Henry (who got them to a final), others would say you'd have to go back to the likes of Overmars or even Brady.

It's not tactical ineptness, it's individual mistakes, where criticism of wenger is totally valid imo is with his goal keepers, here he is clueless, they had a decent one when he joined and he has repeatedly downgraded at every available opportunity.

So much wrong with this post especially the bolded bit! You honestly think that based on finances that Arsenal should get knocked out by Monaco? Or AC Milan 3 years ago?
Oh and you also think that they should finish second to the likes of Shaktar, Schalke or Dortmund in the group stages as well based on finances?

I'd love you (or Neymar for that matter) to use the Delloite list that gets produced every year to show this.