The Goon Thread

[Neymar]

Are they reasonable expectations, the PL is a contest to see who can pay the most in wages, that's not arsenal, they have no place winning the league, that people consider them in the conversation is an achievement, they certainly shouldn't win the CL, not with the wages spent by their English betters or Barca and Madrid, what else is there, they consistently hit par.

100% correct!

the problem is that no fans dont see football as being a business. but some football clubs are run as genuine businesses.

so in the case of arsenal, fans just see that if they had made a £50m loss every year like their counterparts, they would be competitive with them. £50m is seen as pocket change in elite football, because of the spending habits of abramovic and mansour etc. arsenal make something like an average profit of £20m per season. if they were to lose £50m, that would represent £70m which they can invest in their playing squad. because football isnt business to fans, when a club like arsenal dont spend £70m to fill "gaps" in their squad, fans perceive this to be a "problem of transfer strategy", "lack of scouting knowledge", "inability to spot obvious problems" etc etc etc.

arsenal are quite obviously a business in the eyes of their owners, and so thats why their sporting performances should be judged uniquely. its wrong to compare them with a club like city who will spend "whatever it takes to win". or even with a club like real madrid, who's president has a basically unlimited loan fund from the government. and also unfair to compare them with cherry picked clubs like dortmund. if you want to judge their perfomances against a club like dortmund, you have to judge them against all the clubs of dortmund's relative size.

if all elite football clubs were forced to make a profit of at least £20m per year, i have no doubt that arsenal would be much more succesful. fwiw, this "utopia" somewhat reflects the landscape of the premier league pre-abramovic, where arsenal were more successful. having said this, if every club were genuinely forced to make a £20m profit every year, im sure arsenal would invest even less in their team and try to make a £100m profit every year. which perfectly highlights what arsenal are; a business. and explains why arsenal are where they are today.

 

[Baleforce]

No...i have based it on group stages as well!
Go ahead use the group stages AND the round of 16 knockout stages of the last 5 years to show me how Arsene Wenger and Arsenal are 'doing about par'.
In fact, why don't you go back further to show this

Last five years they have been eliminated by Bayern twice, Barca, Ibra, and this year Monaco,who still have a wage bill including Falcao and Mountinho don't forget, that also have Berba, yes it's the weak link in the chain but it's not like they have lost to a bunch of Latvian pig farmers

 

[Baleforce]

So much wrong with this post especially the bolded bit! You honestly think that based on finances that Arsenal should get knocked out by Monaco? Or AC Milan 3 years ago?
Oh and you also think that they should finish second to the likes of Shaktar, Schalke or Dortmund in the group stages as well based on finances?

I'd love you (or Neymar for that matter) to use the Delloite list that gets produced every year to show this.

Milan had Ibra 3 years ago

 

[glorygloryeze]

Last five years they have been eliminated by Bayern twice, Barca, Ibra, and this year Monaco,who still have a wage bill including Falcao and Mountinho don't forget, that also have Berba, yes it's the weak link in the chain but it's not like they have lost to a bunch of Latvian pig farmers

I'm sorry, but do Monaco have a bigger squad than Arsenal? Do they have a higher wage bill overall than Arsenal?

 

[Neymar]

So much wrong with this post especially the bolded bit! You honestly think that based on finances that Arsenal should get knocked out by Monaco? Or AC Milan 3 years ago?
Oh and you also think that they should finish second to the likes of Shaktar, Schalke or Dortmund in the group stages as well based on finances?



I'd love you (or Neymar for that matter) to use the Delloite list that gets produced every year to show this.

havent we ever lost to lower league clubs? how many times this season alone have teams with the fraction of our budget got results against us? theres a lot of variance in football results.

arsenal may have finished 2nd to those clubs, but in that period teams like man utd and liverpool have got knocked out of the group stages outright. and i have no doubt that other top top european sides have also got knocked out in the group stages too to vastly inferior sides. thats just football, even if you had the best manager and players in the world this can happen.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Milan had Ibra 3 years ago

So what? One player. Arsenal have and had a much better team than Milan. The same Milan that for successive years was getting battered in the round of 16 by English sides. The same Milan side that we beat the previous year. and before you say anything about Bale he only played about 20 mins over the two legs vs Milan..

 

[Baleforce]

I'm sorry, but do Monaco have a bigger squad than Arsenal? Do they have a higher wage bill overall than Arsenal?

They probably do, they went mad two years ago and signed loads of players on stupid money, they are reigning that in now, hence the players they are loaning out, but it's not that long ago they were playing keeping up with parc de princes

 

[glorygloryeze]

havent we ever lost to lower league clubs? how many times this season alone have teams with the fraction of our budget got results against us? theres a lot of variance in football results.

arsenal may have finished 2nd to those clubs, but in that period teams like man utd and liverpool have got knocked out of the group stages outright. and i have no doubt that other top top european sides have also got knocked out in the group stages too to vastly inferior sides. thats just football, even if you had the best manager and players in the world this can happen.

Yes, but then point is that Liverpool and Manure can point to other better years alongside those when they git way past the last 16. Variance in results? The point is that there is none with Arsene now in the CL

 

[Neymar]

I'm sorry, but do Monaco have a bigger squad than Arsenal? Do they have a higher wage bill overall than Arsenal?

the gap between arsenal and monaco is similar to the gap between us and fiorentina imo.

short term, anything can happen in football. long term, the results are just a reflection of a clubs financial position.

 

[glorygloryeze]

They probably do, they went mad two years ago and signed loads of players on stupid money, they are reigning that in now, hence the players they are loaning out, but it's not that long ago they were playing keeping up with parc de princes

oh...probably...i probably think they do not now because as you say (and has been pointed out by journos) they have reigned it in and concentrated more on using younger players. How ironic that eh

 

[glorygloryeze]

the gap between arsenal and monaco is similar to the gap between us and fiorentina imo.

short term, anything can happen in football. long term, the results are just a reflection of a clubs financial position.

Really? I'm sure last time i checked Delloite for the last 4 years had Arsenal as one of the top 6/7 in financial teams in Europe...but yet they are always out in round of 16
Excuses are running a little dry now...

 

[Neymar]

Yes, but then point is that Liverpool and Manure can point to other better years alongside those when they git way past the last 16. Variance in results? The point is that there is none with Arsene now in the CL

arsenal can point to years when they progressed further too. you've just cherry picked a very small 5 year sample of 10 games as evidence of your views. in contrast, i can just as easily point to liverpool's 6 game ucl campaign this year as an argument against your point. but i know its wrong to make any definitive conclusions on such a small sample. ie. i dont beleive basel are better than liverpool just because they beat them over a 6 game campaign.

 

[Neymar]

Really? I'm sure last time i checked Delloite for the last 4 years had Arsenal as one of the top 6/7 in financial teams in Europe...but yet they are always out in round of 16
Excuses are running a little dry now...

what deloitte table are you referring to?

 

[Baleforce]

oh...probably...i probably think they do not now because as you say (and has been pointed out by journos) they have reigned it in and concentrated more on using younger players. How ironic that eh

Because of course, when you decide you don't need a player anymore and he's in the reserves or loaned out you immediately stop paying their contracted wages?

We must have saved a fortune this season leaving out Ade

Your Deloitte point, 6/7 teams spend more than arsenal, so if arsenal went one round further every year that would be acceptable and wenger would be doing a good job? What would you consider CL par for their spend?

 

[Baleforce]

Also, re: Liverpool, as a performance which was more impressive, them beating an imploding Milan on pens to win it or the goons near run thing with Barca with 10 men?

Ultimately, the result is everything, I get that, I subscribe to that, but as we are taking about reasonable expectation I think it's a pertinent question.

 

[glorygloryeze]

arsenal can point to years when they progressed further too. you've just cherry picked a very small 5 year sample of 10 games as evidence of your views. in contrast, i can just as easily point to liverpool's 6 game ucl campaign this year as an argument against your point. but i know its wrong to make any definitive conclusions on such a small sample. ie. i dont beleive basel are better than liverpool just because they beat them over a 6 game campaign.

No i'm saying that taking the last five years you will see that Manure have gone out in group stages but then have also actually got to finals. Some decent variance like several other similar clubs, whilst Arsenal have done same old same old. I think you are using Liverpool deliberately to make Arsenal look better

 

[Neymar]

Your Deloitte point, 6/7 teams spend more than arsenal, so if arsenal went one round further every year that would be acceptable and wenger would be doing a good job? What would you consider CL par for their spend?

if he is referring to the deloitte table that i think he is, its not actually that relevant to this debate. and him referring to it shows precisely why wenger is so underrated by casual football fans; they simply cant get their head around the fact that arsenal is being run as a business

 

[glorygloryeze]

what deloitte table are you referring to?

The Deloiite football money rich list they produce every year that usually has Manure or Real at the top each year. I'd be shocked that you are not aware of it

 

[glorygloryeze]

if he is referring to the deloitte table that i think he is, its not actually that relevant to this debate. and him referring to it shows precisely why wenger is so underrated by casual football fans; they simply cant get their head around the fact that arsenal is being run as a business

Lol. YOU are the one that bangs on and on about how finances dictate where a club finishes and how they do in the CL! But yet the Delloite football club rich list is not relevant?
I have read it all from you now!

 

[Neymar]

No i'm saying that taking the last five years you will see that Manure have gone out in group stages but then have also actually got to finals. Some decent variance like several other similar clubs, whilst Arsenal have done same old same old. I think you are using Liverpool deliberately to make Arsenal look better

no, the reference to liverpool was yours. arsenal have been at the bad end of variance for the past 5 years (i think), hence why pundits are creating a false narrative of arsenal being perenial underacheivers. in the same way, teams like atletico and dortmund have been overacheiving and getting lucky for the past few seasons. and pundits have been wrongly attributing this success down to skill, when luck explains far more.

if it was skill, id expect a team like atletico to be in the same place in 5 years time. i think we all know, thats not going to be the case. they are just another deportivo, valencia, sevilla. a flash in the pan. just got lucky in being able to assemble a good squad of players within their budget in a short period.