Which leads us to the need to push the defenders up and play a higher line!
I know that's not a popular opinion around here, but it fixes the problem.
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The Defensive Midfielder
- Thread starter Modric THFC
- Start date
Which leads us to the need to push the defenders up and play a higher line!
I know that's not a popular opinion around here, but it fixes the problem.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I agree but it is not a good idea whilst Dawson is getting selected.
He's not ideal for the job but IMO the main component in a high line is the keeper. Quick defenders will obviously help, but Lloris did pretty well in the first half of the season for us.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that it was fine until we took a hammering, after that you could see the nerves spread and we started to look more vulnerable.
If we revert to it with Dawson in the side, I think that he'll just be targeted.
Sandman
Jermaine Jenas
Arsenal have had to drop playing such a high line to have a bit more stability at the back. Last year at the Lane we used that to our advantage and had Bale and Lennon run in off the high line to get out goals. More or less how Liverpool took us apart at home.
Even with a fast Centre back he is still liable to get caught simply as he will not be going on the direction of play when a ball is slipped through. A high line can only work if you pressure the passers all over the pitch. Like City were doing to us last week. So the problem is two fold really. I think the make up of the squad we have is not one of high energy in the midfield. They are more ball players and only a couple of them have the high energy to close down the opposition at source. So even one player not doing this can be a real weakness in that setup.
As we do not have that kind of pursuit in midfield we need to play a slightly deeper line to allow for that. We can still pressure the oppostion but its not so reliant on cutting out the source or being vulnerable. With the line playing deeper you then need a player that will cover that space in between the midfield and the defensive line. With a two man Midfield that means one has to sit deeper and this also means they can get overrun by a three man midfield.
We have been alarmingly open in between the lines. And it is the major weakness that i feel TS has failed to address. I would prefer any player that plays in the deep midfield position of a trio in midfield to have also the ability to get forward occasionly and have a good shot or pass on him. I believe Sandro can do this. I am less sure about Capoue. He seems to like to sit and pass it around and does not seem to harry players in possesion even though i like some of the attributes he has.
Even with a fast Centre back he is still liable to get caught simply as he will not be going on the direction of play when a ball is slipped through. A high line can only work if you pressure the passers all over the pitch. Like City were doing to us last week. So the problem is two fold really. I think the make up of the squad we have is not one of high energy in the midfield. They are more ball players and only a couple of them have the high energy to close down the opposition at source. So even one player not doing this can be a real weakness in that setup.
As we do not have that kind of pursuit in midfield we need to play a slightly deeper line to allow for that. We can still pressure the oppostion but its not so reliant on cutting out the source or being vulnerable. With the line playing deeper you then need a player that will cover that space in between the midfield and the defensive line. With a two man Midfield that means one has to sit deeper and this also means they can get overrun by a three man midfield.
We have been alarmingly open in between the lines. And it is the major weakness that i feel TS has failed to address. I would prefer any player that plays in the deep midfield position of a trio in midfield to have also the ability to get forward occasionly and have a good shot or pass on him. I believe Sandro can do this. I am less sure about Capoue. He seems to like to sit and pass it around and does not seem to harry players in possesion even though i like some of the attributes he has.
Excellent post
Cochise
Steve Carr
I watched the repeat of MNF today and it was great how Neville pointed out the lack of space that Silva had to work in against Chelsea. The block of 4 they had defending for most the game (with Matic, Luiz, Terry and Cahill) made playing through the middle so difficult. They knew exactly what to do and how to read City's attacking play, they just covered the right areas all the time. It also left Hazard, Willian, Eto and Ramires pretty free to attack, so long as they covered the right areas when defending.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
The high line is more about the attacking 2, 3, or 4 players. Or perhaps more accurately about the 6 players in midfield and forward positions, than the centre backs. In my opinion at least.
Two of the teams that press highly most consistently in Europe are Dortmund and Barca. They've done so very successfully with players like Hummels, Pique and Puyol. Not exactly rapid players. Of course they're better defensively along the ground than Dawson, but they've also been shown to struggle when there's space to run into around them and good passes being played to good attackers. Like all defenders do (as Sandman points out). You need your (central) defenders and goalkeeper to deal with those situations occasionally when pressing high up the pitch, but the frequency those situations arise with is more important than how they get dealt with.
Chelsea pressed City high up the pitch at times last night, they did so very successfully with Terry at centre back. What's the difference? Hazard, Willian, Ramires and Eto'o in those 4 forward positions where AVB had players like Mata, Sturridge, Torres and Anelka.
Either way we're nowhere near looking to a "pure high pressing system" like Barca or Dortmund at the moment. We should aim to be more like Ferguson's United or Bayern, capable of changing our pressing based on game conditions and to preserve energy. We need to defend as a unit when we defend, if it's high up the pitch or further back.
Two of the teams that press highly most consistently in Europe are Dortmund and Barca. They've done so very successfully with players like Hummels, Pique and Puyol. Not exactly rapid players. Of course they're better defensively along the ground than Dawson, but they've also been shown to struggle when there's space to run into around them and good passes being played to good attackers. Like all defenders do (as Sandman points out). You need your (central) defenders and goalkeeper to deal with those situations occasionally when pressing high up the pitch, but the frequency those situations arise with is more important than how they get dealt with.
Chelsea pressed City high up the pitch at times last night, they did so very successfully with Terry at centre back. What's the difference? Hazard, Willian, Ramires and Eto'o in those 4 forward positions where AVB had players like Mata, Sturridge, Torres and Anelka.
Either way we're nowhere near looking to a "pure high pressing system" like Barca or Dortmund at the moment. We should aim to be more like Ferguson's United or Bayern, capable of changing our pressing based on game conditions and to preserve energy. We need to defend as a unit when we defend, if it's high up the pitch or further back.
Really good post Sandman
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
City falling to pieces playing a tacking DM in a 442 instead of fernaninho and Liverpool destroying arsenal today with no tacking DM show the idea that you need a Sandro or capoue type is wrong.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
But both those sides play possession football with a balance on both sides
I still stand by our problem being that we have to have someone on the left who stays on the left!!! That way we create a midfield of 4 rather than 3 with an overlap
Coitinhon and sterling have been effective as they have stayed wide and hit them hard with pace and width (and coming in to score In the case of Sterling)
Stick Andros on the left and Eriksen behind Ade with Bentelab and Paulinho in the middle and see how we look.
Cochise
Steve Carr
You could counter that argument by saying that Arsenal without Flamini lacked the defensive know how to deal with Liverpool's attack. Certainly Arteta and Wheelchair had no idea.
Liverpools defensive shape was what made them so hard to break down, playing with two very tight banks of 4 (or two of 4 and 5) that Arsenal couldn't pass through. That then comes down to coaching, but had Arsenal opted to shoot from range more often they could've created a few more chances, instead they wanted to walk it in.
Gerrard is staying very disciplined in his new role, he's not a natural DM, but he does the job, playing as a quarter back when in possession and leaving the running to Henderson and Coutinho. He was exposed just once where he gave the penalty away, but to say he isn't playing the role of a DM is wrong. I still say that due to their defensive shape and discipline Liverpool contained Arsenal, but also that Gerrard is more defesively competent than what some give him credit for. He may not have the legs but he has the brain.
Liverpools defensive shape was what made them so hard to break down, playing with two very tight banks of 4 (or two of 4 and 5) that Arsenal couldn't pass through. That then comes down to coaching, but had Arsenal opted to shoot from range more often they could've created a few more chances, instead they wanted to walk it in.
Gerrard is staying very disciplined in his new role, he's not a natural DM, but he does the job, playing as a quarter back when in possession and leaving the running to Henderson and Coutinho. He was exposed just once where he gave the penalty away, but to say he isn't playing the role of a DM is wrong. I still say that due to their defensive shape and discipline Liverpool contained Arsenal, but also that Gerrard is more defesively competent than what some give him credit for. He may not have the legs but he has the brain.
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Maltese Falcon
Niko Kranjcar
Just as Clinton is famously pointed out that at the end of the day, it's only the economy that matters, in football there is only one area that really matters - MIDFIELD. Love him or hate him, Wenger has long known this and it is no surprise that he is willing to forgo on defenders and strikers but will never pass up the opportunity to improve his midfield. And this policy has seen them hog top 4 forever! Yes you will not win the league (which you need a complete team for) but having a top class midfield WILL guarantee you champions league year after year.
It's not a surprise that our period of success coincided with the best midfield ever. People forget we made CL with Peter **** Crouch, a clown goalkeeper with butter fingers, and with Corluka and Benny as full backs and an assortment of mediocre centre halves when Ledley was not fit to play! But because of the midfield we flourished. That midfield had a key characteristic: players who were world (or at least international) class - Bale, VDV and Modric - and a supporting cast of water carriers in Lennon, Huddlestone, Sandro and Parker. They complemented the world class players providing graft and presence to the genius of the first three. Plus the overall movement off the ball was outstanding.
Therefore, for all the discussions on other areas, it's the midfield we need to fix and that is our problem
1. None of the current batch of midfielders are good enough for top 4; Eriksen is the most likely candidate to challenge that but he still does not take a game by the scruff of the neck. He may come good in a couple of years as may Bentaleb; but that is a big "may"... Mason is a tidy player but hasn;t shown anything to suggest anything more than mid table quality. Chadli, Strambouli, Paulinho, Capoue... incredible to think we wasted our Bale inheritance on a shopping spree for these and as for Lamela... my opinion is very clear. If he continues to be a waste of space after 6 months, I have little optimism that things will change any time soon.
2. The CL team complemented each other brilliantly. Parker/Huddlestone/Sandro did the dirty work, Modric provided the industry, Bale the pace & power and Lennon the trickery whereas VDV provided the invention and goals. You look at the current batch and what do they stand out in? They all seem to be variations of a theme - jack of all trades but master of none. You could recognise Bale from his runs and shooting, Modric from the passing etc without needing to see their number? Nowadays, they all seem to be doing exactly the same - predictable - thing. No one is particularly good at winning the ball, no one has outstanding pace, no one has the inventiveness to see a pass that the opposition cannot...
3. The third thing with the current crop is that their ball skills and movement are simply not good enough. Their ball control is sub-standard as can be seen by the passes that go astray when trying to play at a fast pace and by the number of times they lose the ball even under no pressure. They cannot predict a pass into space, they are too static and totally unable to move out of their slow paced comfort zone. And as for their movement ???!!! Why do the scum rarely come a cropper against the likes of Palace? Because the only way to break these teams is by constant movement into space. When have we last consistently dominated "lower table" teams? Don't ask me cause I have no idea. THAT is our problem and the reason we suffer so badly at the Lane.
What's the silver lining? I must admit I see mainly clouds on the horizon. Top 4 in the near future? you must be having a laugh. We need a total midfield overhaul with a decent holding midfielder, someone to pull the strings in midfield (how could we possibly have looked the other way when Song became available?) and pacey wide players (I would recall Pritchard and throw him in the deep end; he already shows levels of skill that none of the others have)
Problem is we are back 10 years ago playing catch up...
It's not a surprise that our period of success coincided with the best midfield ever. People forget we made CL with Peter **** Crouch, a clown goalkeeper with butter fingers, and with Corluka and Benny as full backs and an assortment of mediocre centre halves when Ledley was not fit to play! But because of the midfield we flourished. That midfield had a key characteristic: players who were world (or at least international) class - Bale, VDV and Modric - and a supporting cast of water carriers in Lennon, Huddlestone, Sandro and Parker. They complemented the world class players providing graft and presence to the genius of the first three. Plus the overall movement off the ball was outstanding.
Therefore, for all the discussions on other areas, it's the midfield we need to fix and that is our problem
1. None of the current batch of midfielders are good enough for top 4; Eriksen is the most likely candidate to challenge that but he still does not take a game by the scruff of the neck. He may come good in a couple of years as may Bentaleb; but that is a big "may"... Mason is a tidy player but hasn;t shown anything to suggest anything more than mid table quality. Chadli, Strambouli, Paulinho, Capoue... incredible to think we wasted our Bale inheritance on a shopping spree for these and as for Lamela... my opinion is very clear. If he continues to be a waste of space after 6 months, I have little optimism that things will change any time soon.
2. The CL team complemented each other brilliantly. Parker/Huddlestone/Sandro did the dirty work, Modric provided the industry, Bale the pace & power and Lennon the trickery whereas VDV provided the invention and goals. You look at the current batch and what do they stand out in? They all seem to be variations of a theme - jack of all trades but master of none. You could recognise Bale from his runs and shooting, Modric from the passing etc without needing to see their number? Nowadays, they all seem to be doing exactly the same - predictable - thing. No one is particularly good at winning the ball, no one has outstanding pace, no one has the inventiveness to see a pass that the opposition cannot...
3. The third thing with the current crop is that their ball skills and movement are simply not good enough. Their ball control is sub-standard as can be seen by the passes that go astray when trying to play at a fast pace and by the number of times they lose the ball even under no pressure. They cannot predict a pass into space, they are too static and totally unable to move out of their slow paced comfort zone. And as for their movement ???!!! Why do the scum rarely come a cropper against the likes of Palace? Because the only way to break these teams is by constant movement into space. When have we last consistently dominated "lower table" teams? Don't ask me cause I have no idea. THAT is our problem and the reason we suffer so badly at the Lane.
What's the silver lining? I must admit I see mainly clouds on the horizon. Top 4 in the near future? you must be having a laugh. We need a total midfield overhaul with a decent holding midfielder, someone to pull the strings in midfield (how could we possibly have looked the other way when Song became available?) and pacey wide players (I would recall Pritchard and throw him in the deep end; he already shows levels of skill that none of the others have)
Problem is we are back 10 years ago playing catch up...
El Guepardo
Rafael Van Der Vaart
It we buy a new striker, I don't think it will help as much as people think, for the reasons that you've outlined above. It's not like our midfield has been creating regular clear cut chances that have been missed, is it?! So, if we sign a new striker, they'll continue to be starved of service and will consequently score less goals than people think he ought to, suddenly the crowd get on his back and start to plan for a new striker. I'd prefer a new midfielder who can create those chances than a new striker.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I think all of Bentaleb, Mason, Eriksen and Lamela will be 'top 4 players' within 18 months.
Chadli, Stambouli and maybe Townsend are good enough for 'supporting cast' too.
They are mostly just a bit too young/not at their prime yet
Chadli, Stambouli and maybe Townsend are good enough for 'supporting cast' too.
They are mostly just a bit too young/not at their prime yet
Maltese Falcon
Niko Kranjcar
No-one can say you are not an optimistic when the coach is one you publicly rooted for.
Wish I could share your optimism... If there is one youth player who I think will the top 4, it's Pritchard but he will need more than 18 months.
We aren't 10 years back. Mason and Bentelab are quality Young players with good technique and drive - Dembele should be but he seems to have faded through his hip. They need some experience and know how along side - likes of Milner deJong or schneiderlin could help provide that and give us some balance.
The major problems are the fact out front 3 all want the ball to feet and like to play neat and tidy football - eriksen has a bit of class about him, but it's no surprise to me that when kane came in at 10 we played better as we had someone who can turn on it, drive, commit players and get into the box. Erisken is one of our best players but we need different options along side him to provide balance and width.
Also we are completely hamstrung by the fact we have no pace in behind. When Soldado plays 9 its all near triangles and one twos, yet it has to be perfect for us to score and play well. If we had a benteke type roughing defenders, waiting on the shoulder, it would give the team a whole new dynamic.
Mark my words we have some excellent footballers in our midfield (erisken, Mason, bentelab) but they need a bit of experience along side and also some out balls and different options for them to work with. A Pacy winger (even a lennon of 4 years ago) and a mobile powerful number 9 and we would see our team start to pose some real problems for other teams because our midfield will utilise them
The major problems are the fact out front 3 all want the ball to feet and like to play neat and tidy football - eriksen has a bit of class about him, but it's no surprise to me that when kane came in at 10 we played better as we had someone who can turn on it, drive, commit players and get into the box. Erisken is one of our best players but we need different options along side him to provide balance and width.
Also we are completely hamstrung by the fact we have no pace in behind. When Soldado plays 9 its all near triangles and one twos, yet it has to be perfect for us to score and play well. If we had a benteke type roughing defenders, waiting on the shoulder, it would give the team a whole new dynamic.
Mark my words we have some excellent footballers in our midfield (erisken, Mason, bentelab) but they need a bit of experience along side and also some out balls and different options for them to work with. A Pacy winger (even a lennon of 4 years ago) and a mobile powerful number 9 and we would see our team start to pose some real problems for other teams because our midfield will utilise them
El Guepardo
Rafael Van Der Vaart
You think that those two players would help the creativity issues which appear to dog our midfield?