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The Defensive Midfielder
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Sandman
Jermaine Jenas
I prefer the one against Chelski! shame we lost!
But also his goal at Fulham was fairly nice
[video=youtube;Vq__pRfCMy4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq__pRfCMy4[/video]
Cochise
Steve Carr
I still think Shwarzer could've done better with that one, on the other hand De Gea didn't have a prayer of stopping the other goal.
So far as Sherwood is saying, I do in a way agree with him in that having a DM that cannot do anything more than tackle is a problem. If a player is limited the opposition can use it to their advantage as said on the last page. Not only that but you don't want a situation where a midfielder has the option to run into some space and doesn't take it because their own skillset limits them. That said if you adhere to what TS wants then you must have players who are comfortable at both sides of the game, multi facted midfielders. How many of them are there just floating around for peanuts??
I guess you would like a more goalscoring version of Carrick, a man who defensively knew his job and could keep a team ticking over but also play that incisive pass. I think Sherwood discredits Makalele's role somewhat as his job in recycling possession and keeping things ticking over in possession were vital for that Chelsea team. He does in fairness say that Makalele was a good player but was smart in letting Frank do what he did best, basically took a back seat for the good of the team.
So far as Sherwood is saying, I do in a way agree with him in that having a DM that cannot do anything more than tackle is a problem. If a player is limited the opposition can use it to their advantage as said on the last page. Not only that but you don't want a situation where a midfielder has the option to run into some space and doesn't take it because their own skillset limits them. That said if you adhere to what TS wants then you must have players who are comfortable at both sides of the game, multi facted midfielders. How many of them are there just floating around for peanuts??
I guess you would like a more goalscoring version of Carrick, a man who defensively knew his job and could keep a team ticking over but also play that incisive pass. I think Sherwood discredits Makalele's role somewhat as his job in recycling possession and keeping things ticking over in possession were vital for that Chelsea team. He does in fairness say that Makalele was a good player but was smart in letting Frank do what he did best, basically took a back seat for the good of the team.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Interesting. Very interesting. I think a large part of the Arsnl's success this season has been down to re- signing Flamini. He has shored up their previously suspect defense and provided the platform for the dwarf midfield maestros to play. With a three match suspension coming up and Wiltshire and Ramsay injured, it will be fascinating to see if their current run continues. I suspect they will be out played by Liverscum next week in the battle of the scummers.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Exactly, and I think that is what Ferdinand is saying in the article, he/they want all their midfielders to be capable of being involved in play in all areas of the pitch when called upon. He's clearly not saying every time we go forward well send everyone and we have absolutely no cover although he will un-doubtably be picked up that way by some on here. He's saying he wants a fluid system where anyone has the ability to push on/cover in as and when they need to.
Strikers play up front because they should be good at scoring goals, defenders play in defense because they should be good at stopping goals, midfielders play in midfield because they should be good at doing both (and the really good ones can create goals too).
Then why are the real doing that? Are they forgetting to shuffle across a bit?
Cochise
Steve Carr
Probably because neither one of them are naturally inclined to defend.
The more I read back through what was said though, the more I start to disagree with it. They talk up Makelele's intelligence for noticing that by letting Frank Lampard go forward the team as a whole would prosper, but go on to say that it was a bad thing for football. I understand what Les and Tim are saying, in that yes it would be very nice if all players could be skilled in all areas and that breeding midfielders who can't do much more than defend is wrong. I disagree though that if you have a midfielder who will get you 20 goals a season you should not find a defensive foil to allow him to excel at that role.
If you truly have a player that can win games for you single handedly, then why not create a system that gets the best from them? It's true that opposition teams will identify that player as a danger man and aim to shut him down, but then this is where the system is supposed to create situations that free that player up.
The more I read back through what was said though, the more I start to disagree with it. They talk up Makelele's intelligence for noticing that by letting Frank Lampard go forward the team as a whole would prosper, but go on to say that it was a bad thing for football. I understand what Les and Tim are saying, in that yes it would be very nice if all players could be skilled in all areas and that breeding midfielders who can't do much more than defend is wrong. I disagree though that if you have a midfielder who will get you 20 goals a season you should not find a defensive foil to allow him to excel at that role.
If you truly have a player that can win games for you single handedly, then why not create a system that gets the best from them? It's true that opposition teams will identify that player as a danger man and aim to shut him down, but then this is where the system is supposed to create situations that free that player up.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
They aren't though, Generally Bentelab has sat deeper than whoever he is partnered with.
You're right, but deeper than the edge of the opponents' box isn't deep enough clearly. That's not holding, it's just being slightly less attacking than his partner.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
His positioning and how right/wrong it is depends totally and utterly on the situations unfolding in the game at the time. I don't see how you can make such a sweeping statement without taking into account the various different situations he finds himself in during a game.
Defensive midfielder does not mean 'I must never go more than 10 yards away from my central defenders.' For someone who believes so strongly in systems and football being such a complex game, you seem to take a fairly simplistic view on this. Why?
Because there are some things you just can't do if you want to succeed in football. You can't allow the opposition to run cleanly at your defenders any more than you can tell all your players to go and stand by the corner flag.
I'm all for committing players forward when we have the ball, but there has to be some kind of method of cover in place for when we inevitably lose it.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Which we have, in the fact that (currently) Nabil Bentaleb sits deeper than anyone else (as we've both agreed).
Deeper than his partner. Not deep enough to stop a massive gap in midfield and a clean run to our defence. Either that or teams are getting a clean run because he's **** and I don't know anyone who thinks that.
Obviously you can push him up but you need to play a really high line and we all know what people think of that.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
There are points where he should be deeper, but I think that is down to him learning the position rather than TS not telling him.
Sandro will make a big difference IMO
90sSpursBook
Erik Edman
Re: Interesting article on "holding midfielders" (considering we have 4 of them)
The City Chelsea game provided some great insight into the correct use of a defensive midfielder.
City got it completely wrong. In a game where they needed to dictate play against a counter attacking side DeMichelis severely limited what they could do. With fernandinho out they should have selected a more attack minded player who could influence the final third.
Chokes as by contrast, slightly aided by coming up against DeMichelis correctly fielded 2 deeper lying holding midfielders to deny city space in the final third.
You'd hope had Sherwood seen that and we'd been playing city next week rather than last that common sense would dictate the need to play deeper holding midfielders ie Capoue +1.
Likewise, and his backs up what sir les is saying there are occasions where a DeMichelis type player is completely redundant and will severely restrict your attacking strategies.
The City Chelsea game provided some great insight into the correct use of a defensive midfielder.
City got it completely wrong. In a game where they needed to dictate play against a counter attacking side DeMichelis severely limited what they could do. With fernandinho out they should have selected a more attack minded player who could influence the final third.
Chokes as by contrast, slightly aided by coming up against DeMichelis correctly fielded 2 deeper lying holding midfielders to deny city space in the final third.
You'd hope had Sherwood seen that and we'd been playing city next week rather than last that common sense would dictate the need to play deeper holding midfielders ie Capoue +1.
Likewise, and his backs up what sir les is saying there are occasions where a DeMichelis type player is completely redundant and will severely restrict your attacking strategies.
Bullet
Andy Thompson
Re: Interesting article on "holding midfielders" (considering we have 4 of them)
Hmm, I know what you mean, DeMichelis was very one paced and got dragged way out to the flank when they conceded, and Yaya didn't fill in properly for him. And Silva didn't track the right back Ivanovic.
I think the key difference was that Luiz and Matic started deep but also contributed going forward and passed it well, and the front players also held the ball up and broke well and generally got them a foothold in the game.
Contrast that to Spurs where Bentaleb and Dembele did their best but every time they managed to scrape it forwards it came back within seconds as our front players couldn't hold onto it for 2 seconds and got walloped by City.
Also Aguero was making all sorts of brilliant movements against Spurs, whereas Dzeko made much less impact against Terry and Cahill.
Hmm, I know what you mean, DeMichelis was very one paced and got dragged way out to the flank when they conceded, and Yaya didn't fill in properly for him. And Silva didn't track the right back Ivanovic.
I think the key difference was that Luiz and Matic started deep but also contributed going forward and passed it well, and the front players also held the ball up and broke well and generally got them a foothold in the game.
Contrast that to Spurs where Bentaleb and Dembele did their best but every time they managed to scrape it forwards it came back within seconds as our front players couldn't hold onto it for 2 seconds and got walloped by City.
Also Aguero was making all sorts of brilliant movements against Spurs, whereas Dzeko made much less impact against Terry and Cahill.
clevelandspur
Pascal Chimbonda
Re: Interesting article on "holding midfielders" (considering we have 4 of them)
I honestly think it had more to do with Aguero and Fernandinho being unstoppable on our day and Dzeko and DiMechils being ****
I honestly think it had more to do with Aguero and Fernandinho being unstoppable on our day and Dzeko and DiMechils being ****
milo
Jack L. Jones
That's happening because the defence are playing deeper so Dawson doesn't get caught for pace. If our midfield drops back to sit in front of them our forwards are going to be isolated.