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Tanguy Ndombele

monkeybarry said:
I'm not calling being directly responsible for throwing away a two goal lead "progress".
If he was a youth player, maybe.
If he'd signed in August, maybe.
After two years? No.
The way people talk about him is not what you would expect from a first team player, and isn't what you should accept from a first team player.

Poor fitness? Fine - you're not an elite footballer.
Inconsistent? Fine - you're not a reliable elite player.
Prone to errors? Fine - you're not reliable as part of a team.

It's time to stop makes excuses for him (I use excuse very deliberately) and demand he performs - because that is what he's employed to do.
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He also contributed a lot more positively and did some good defensive work too. The likes of Lo Celso and Dele were much more of an issue yesterday with both contributing nothing.
I'd much rather have a player that gets on the ball and tries to make something happen, even if it doesn't come off, than Lo Celso and Dele who do nothing.
 
DubSpur said:
He also contributed a lot more positively and did some good defensive work too. The likes of Lo Celso and Dele were much more of an issue yesterday with both contributing nothing.
I'd much rather have a player that gets on the ball and tries to make something happen, even if it doesn't come off, than Lo Celso and Dele who do nothing.
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Both those players will do things, but they need to be played in their best role
 
DubSpur said:
He also contributed a lot more positively and did some good defensive work too. The likes of Lo Celso and Dele were much more of an issue yesterday with both contributing nothing.
I'd much rather have a player that gets on the ball and tries to make something happen, even if it doesn't come off, than Lo Celso and Dele who do nothing.
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I must've imagined Dele's assist as I was standing there at the Molineux last night!
 
Bishop said:
But those errors are the first time he has directly been culpable for the goals we've conceded. Couple that with us being 2 goals up was down to him along with his general performance than I think you have to say on the balance the positives yesterday outweighed the negatives.
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braineclipse said:
So, can you make (two) costly errors and still show progress? I think yes.

First of all I've been very clear about where and how I'm seeing progress. Two errors doesn't say much
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braineclipse said:
So, can you make (two) costly errors and still show progress? I think yes.

First of all I've been very clear about where and how I'm seeing progress. Two errors doesn't say much about his fitness or defensive work. I guess a lack of concentration and awareness due to tiredness due to fitness levels is plausible, but if that was the case I would heve expected more errors to come later in the game, that didn't really happen.

Put simply. Can you show improved fitness and still make those two errors? Can you show improved defensive work and make those two errors? Why not?
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I think we have very different standards and expectations of what a first team player should deliver and how much they should have done in two years.
Fingers crossed you are right and it'll come good soon - I see very little to indicate that, but would love it to happen.

A few people have mentioned Dele and GLC as comparison.
I wanted Dele replaced a 6 months before the PSG links - it's been clear for ages that he has no idea what kind of player he is anymore and cannot adapt his game to play in modern systems. He only works playing off a front man as a pivot. His career is destined to be mid table with a great highlights video.
GLC - he is Tainio. Ability is there, but injury prone. Also needs replacing.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Problem wit( him is we all know the guys got crazy skills, but so does the opposition. If they can snipe that ball off him, the chances are there onto a counter
His effort on the corner was woeful, but why was he marking Dedonker. That was odd to me
But he scored a good gaol and did some really good stuff.
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I was confused by this too, it made no sense. During the Chelsea game he was marking Lukaku. If you looked up the word 'mismatch' you see a pic of them. And after he was subbed, Skipp was marking Lukaku, talk about little and large!

I'm just curious to understand Nuno's tactics with how he sets us up for corner. Seems very odd to me.
 
monkeybarry said:
I think we have very different standards and expectations of what a first team player should deliver and how much they should have done in two years.
Fingers crossed you are right and it'll come good soon - I see very little to indicate that, but would love it to happen.

A few people have mentioned Dele and GLC as comparison.
I wanted Dele replaced a 6 months before the PSG links - it's been clear for ages that he has no idea what kind of player he is anymore and cannot adapt his game to play in modern systems. He only works playing off a front man as a pivot. His career is destined to be mid table with a great highlights video.
GLC - he is Tainio. Ability is there, but injury prone. Also needs replacing.
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There's no doubt that he hasn't done enough so far in his two years here. We could perhaps have some disagreement about last season where I think he was at times very good, rightly an automatic starter and even though he had a role with more limited defensive responsibility he put in some decent shifts.

I'm not talking about those two years. Call it excuses if you want, but I haven't really made any excuses about the past that I can remember.

I see some progress here and now, you don't, fair enough.

I have no real doubts about his quality on the ball and ability to positively impact games when we get him on the ball. I don't know if that's an area of disagreement between us?

Thus to me fitness and defensive work rate are the key issues holding him back from becoming a fantastic player. Only trying to evaluate if there's positive movement in those key areas. Accepting that it's been below standards and expectations so far. I think there is improvement, but I don't know what will come.

What are your standards and expectations for defensive work rate and stamina for a creative player in a box to box role in this system? Does it have to be Hojbjerg standard to be good enough?

How has Ndombele failed to live up to your standards in that respect in these three games?
 
RunTMC said:
I was confused by this too, it made no sense. During the Chelsea game he was marking Lukaku. If you looked up the word 'mismatch' you see a pic of them. And after he was subbed, Skipp was marking Lukaku, talk about little and large!

I'm just curious to understand Nuno's tactics with how he sets us up for corner. Seems very odd to me.
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A few of us have tried to explain this in another thread..... We are employing a mix of zonal and man to man for set pieces. We are leaving our 3 best headers of the ball as the zonal markers and then our other players go man to man. The idea is that the 3 zonal players should be free to go and win the ball if it is coming into their zone, while the man to man player should be just trying to ensure that the opposition player doesn't get a free header in.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I must've imagined Dele's assist as I was standing there at the Molineux last night!
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I thought he was pretty poor beyond that moment. Passed the ball straight out of play on a couple of occasions. He was better than he has been (the role suited him better), but still ultimately unimpressed if I'm honest. He just doesn't do a great deal in normal play. I think we need more.
 
Bishop said:
I thought he was pretty poor beyond that moment. Passed the ball straight out of play on a couple of occasions. He was better than he has been (the role suited him better), but still ultimately unimpressed if I'm honest. He just doesn't do a great deal in normal play. I think we need more.
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Should've had at least 2 and perhaps 3 assists last night had our fowards finishing been better.
 
Bishop said:
I thought he was pretty poor beyond that moment. Passed the ball straight out of play on a couple of occasions. He was better than he has been (the role suited him better), but still ultimately unimpressed if I'm honest. He just doesn't do a great deal in normal play. I think we need more.
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He had the most key passes and joint highest amount of tackles - hard to square that with the idea he doesn't do a great deal in normal play tbh
 
billyiddo said:
He had the most key passes and joint highest amount of tackles - hard to square that with the idea he doesn't do a great deal in normal play tbh
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Fair enough but we all know stats can be interpreted in many manners to suit.

What I saw was a better Dele than the rubbish one in CM, but still unconvinced. I want more involvement from a 10, more cutting passes. More control. I prefer a 10nin the mould of VDV than a Dele.
 
Bishop said:
Fair enough but we all know stats can be interpreted in many manners to suit.

What I saw was a better Dele than the rubbish one in CM, but still unconvinced. I want more involvement from a 10, more cutting passes. More control. I prefer a 10nin the mould of VDV than a Dele.
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My thoughts as well, his pass for our first goal was a great one but apart from that he was not really doing much. The problem as i see it is that we have tried to fit him in the side and had a change of posistion but i still do not see the " old Dele".
 
Bishop said:
Fair enough but we all know stats can be interpreted in many manners to suit.

What I saw was a better Dele than the rubbish one in CM, but still unconvinced. I want more involvement from a 10, more cutting passes. More control. I prefer a 10nin the mould of VDV than a Dele.
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He wasn't playing as 10 though. I think our fans have to stop judging Dele as a '10' and get used to the fact that Nuno is playing Dele in a completely different role.
 
parklane1 said:
My thoughts as well, his pass for our first goal was a great one but apart from that he was not really doing much. The problem as i see it is that we have tried to fit him in the side and had a change of posistion but i still do not see the " old Dele".
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Other than the other 2 key passes he made aside from the assist (more than any player) and the tackles he made (as many as any other player).
 
Finney Is Back said:
He wasn't playing as 10 though. I think our fans have to stop judging Dele as a '10' and get used to the fact that Nuno is playing Dele in a completely different role.
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Where is it you think he was playing? Look at the heat maps, he was often ahead of Kane and clearly was the most advanced (midfielder).
 
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