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Son Heung-Min

Bishop said:
There's nothing to miss with Werner other than him missing chances.
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There’s clearly an element of Werner getting a lot of stick on here and posters wanting to defend him which is perfectly fine and normal when a player gets criticism, there’s a counter reaction of people sticking up for them. Almost feels like it’s get to the point though of people wanting to be edgy and cool by saying he’s better for the system than Son. The decision to re-loan him is a such a strange one as we didn’t like him enough to sign him and he’s not first choice so why bring him in again? Ange’s comments at the end of the last season seemed to indicate that we wouldn’t take up the option to sign him.
 
Jurgen the German said:
There’s clearly an element of Werner getting a lot of stick on here and posters wanting to defend him which is perfectly fine and normal when a player gets criticism, there’s a counter reaction of people sticking up for them. Almost feels like it’s get to the point though of people wanting to be edgy and cool by saying he’s better for the system than Son. The decision to re-loan him is a such a strange one as we didn’t like him enough to sign him and he’s not first choice so why bring him in again? Ange’s comments at the end of the last season seemed to indicate that we wouldn’t take up the option to sign him.
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Saw an awful lot of "We're a better side without Son" comments when we beat Man U and they died down when Brighton beat us. Pure reactionary nonsense.

I like Werner, so much of his general play is very good but his end product has always been dreadful and is even worse than normal at the moment. Yesterday, even his touch was Sunday league standard so he was completely abysmal.

If it's a choice between Son and Werner, it's Son every single time for me.
 
Jurgen the German said:
There’s clearly an element of Werner getting a lot of stick on here and posters wanting to defend him which is perfectly fine and normal when a player gets criticism, there’s a counter reaction of people sticking up for them. Almost feels like it’s get to the point though of people wanting to be edgy and cool by saying he’s better for the system than Son. The decision to re-loan him is a such a strange one as we didn’t like him enough to sign him and he’s not first choice so why bring him in again? Ange’s comments at the end of the last season seemed to indicate that we wouldn’t take up the option to sign him.
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I think there is also a third element where its ok to say he is fine and not micro in on every mistake he makes like he is some exclusive club which seems to be where he is. If we start a game and he fails to trap a pass and Deki and say Madders did the same, the outcry towards Werners efforts would be deafening. He is in the stage where his mistakes are being treated differently to others.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think there is also a third element where its ok to say he is fine and not micro in on every mistake he makes like he is some exclusive club which seems to be where he is. If we start a game and he fails to trap a pass and Deki and say Madders did the same, the outcry towards Werners efforts would be deafening. He is in the stage where his mistakes are being treated differently to others.
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There's a fella two down from me. Has a couple of spacegoats every season. Was Winks and Dier a couple of years ago, Dier and Emerson last year. This year it's Werner and Johnson. He gave Werner pelters yesterday.

There was a fair bit of moaning about Werner around me yesterday. Had that been a tight game, he'd have been slaughtered.

In fairness, he had a 'mare. You could see him at the final whistle, he knew it. The lad is a good footballer and he does bring a lot. But his end product isn't going to improve significantly at this point of his career so he'll never contribute as much as Son. If Werner, on his best day, had Son's chance, we'd have won the game 3-1.
 
DeanoAustin said:
There's a fella two down from me. Has a couple of spacegoats every season. Was Winks and Dier a couple of years ago, Dier and Emerson last year. This year it's Werner and Johnson. He gave Werner pelters yesterday.

There was a fair bit of moaning about Werner around me yesterday. Had that been a tight game, he'd have been slaughtered.

In fairness, he had a 'mare. You could see him at the final whistle, he knew it. The lad is a good footballer and he does bring a lot. But his end product isn't going to improve significantly at this point of his career so he'll never contribute as much as Son. If Werner, on his best day, had Son's chance, we'd have won the game 3-1.
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The problem is Son won't contribute as much as Son in the future. Werner will be long gone.

It will be interesting to see Ange's succession plan for Sonny. Hopefully it will be put in place whilst Sonny is still at the club so we have 2 lethal left forwards.
 
DeanoAustin said:
There's a fella two down from me. Has a couple of spacegoats every season. Was Winks and Dier a couple of years ago, Dier and Emerson last year. This year it's Werner and Johnson. He gave Werner pelters yesterday.

There was a fair bit of moaning about Werner around me yesterday. Had that been a tight game, he'd have been slaughtered.

In fairness, he had a 'mare. You could see him at the final whistle, he knew it. The lad is a good footballer and he does bring a lot. But his end product isn't going to improve significantly at this point of his career so he'll never contribute as much as Son. If Werner, on his best day, had Son's chance, we'd have won the game 3-1.
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I don't think his overall end product is as bad though, yes his finishing is and he looks shot of confidence and you wonder would that get better, likely not but its def not gonna happen from this point of confidence either. His passing, link up and crossing are not as bad as made out, yesterday he had a mare, absolutely, you can't get away from it, but is not the first or last to either.

I am not trying to be "edgy" to defend him, I just think like most things modern its a game of extremes now. We live in a period where 6 good months and a good game means someone's the best the games ever seen and on the counter, someone has a slow start or comes with a rep and they get extreme labels put on them. For me Werner is no where near as bad as people make out to that point
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think there is also a third element where its ok to say he is fine and not micro in on every mistake he makes like he is some exclusive club which seems to be where he is. If we start a game and he fails to trap a pass and Deki and say Madders did the same, the outcry towards Werners efforts would be deafening. He is in the stage where his mistakes are being treated differently to others.
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He's not fine though. Fine suggests that he's doing well. Fine is not a neutral statement, it's a qualitative one and no he's not doing fine unless our standards are in the gutter.

The others are given more allowance because there is an upside to their play. There is very little with Werner. Now for me, I'm critical of everyone as I'm sure you've seen so no one is getting an allowance from me. 🤣

Certainly not bloody Werner. 😐
 
Bishop said:
He's not fine though. Fine suggests that he's doing well. Fine is not a neutral statement, it's a qualitative one and no he's not doing fine unless our standards are in the gutter.

The others are given more allowance because there is an upside to their play. There is very little with Werner. Now for me, I'm critical of everyone as I'm sure you've seen so no one is getting an allowance from me. 🤣

Certainly not bloody Werner. 😐
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Last season he injected life in the side when it was on a lull and was absolutely fine, even by your definition. He was excellent against United and had the RB on toast, another upside thats generally put out by the miss and people saying the RB was crap. As I say he is fine....the fact you are bothering to drill down about the definition goes a long way to prove my point.

Its not just about those players having an upside, its about a player having targets on his back because as soon as he walks on people hound him, the example given on the other post by @DeanoAustin isn't something I haven't seen or heard either, its pathetic in many respects
 
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Grays_1890 said:
I don't think his overall end product is as bad though, yes his finishing is and he looks shot of confidence and you wonder would that get better, likely not but its def not gonna happen from this point of confidence either. His passing, link up and crossing are not as bad as made out, yesterday he had a mare, absolutely, you can't get away from it, but is not the first or last to either.

I am not trying to be "edgy" to defend him, I just think like most things modern its a game of extremes now. We live in a period where 6 good months and a good game means someone's the best the games ever seen and on the counter, someone has a slow start or comes with a rep and they get extreme labels put on them. For me Werner is no where near as bad as people make out to that point
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It’s totally ok to defend him but I used the word “edgy” with respect to people saying he’s better for the system than Son. His general play might be “ok” but it’s irrelevant because his lack of end product lets him down. I think I could excuse some of the misses if he were getting assists and creating chances left right and centre but he’s barely doing that. I came back to the question why re-loan him? We didn’t think enough of him to make the move permanent and the general consensus seems to be that he’s a backup and that’s reinforced for by Ange dropping him upon Son’s return. Son may have games where he is terrible but he produces outcomes even on a bad day. Given how we are setup defensively I’d say it’s crucial that we don’t play attackers that squander as many chances as Werner.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Saw an awful lot of "We're a better side without Son" comments when we beat Man U and they died down when Brighton beat us. Pure reactionary nonsense.

I like Werner, so much of his general play is very good but his end product has always been dreadful and is even worse than normal at the moment. Yesterday, even his touch was Sunday league standard so he was completely abysmal.

If it's a choice between Son and Werner, it's Son every single time for me.
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For me it's:

Son
Odobert
Moore




Werner.
 
Jurgen the German said:
It’s totally ok to defend him but I used the word “edgy” with respect to people saying he’s better for the system than Son. His general play might be “ok” but it’s irrelevant because his lack of end product lets him down. I think I could excuse some of the misses if he were getting assists and creating chances left right and centre but he’s barely doing that. I came back to the question why re-loan him? We didn’t think enough of him to make the move permanent and the general consensus seems to be that he’s a backup and that’s reinforced for by Ange dropping him upon Son’s return. Son may have games where he is terrible but he produces outcomes even on a bad day. Given how we are setup defensively I’d say it’s crucial that we don’t play attackers that squander as many chances as Werner.
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I am not comparing him to Son at all but that statement is not anywhere near being true TBH and I love Son BTW.
 
JerusalemMan said:
Moore, Yang and Odobert are three young players who can provide wing threat (we hope) but just need that cover for this season to avoid over-exposure at this stage of their careers. Hopefully next season will see them stepping in and stepping up.
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Agree but from what I've seen and granted a small sample size I don't think Odobert has any issues with stepping up this season tbh....
 
JerusalemMan said:
Moore, Yang and Odobert are three young players who can provide wing threat (we hope) but just need that cover for this season to avoid over-exposure at this stage of their careers. Hopefully next season will see them stepping in and stepping up.
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I think it’s 2 seasons in reality which is why is why I’m desperate for som to come good
 
Grays_1890 said:
I am not comparing him to Son at all but that statement is not anywhere near being true TBH and I love Son BTW.
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Only Salah has more goal contributions since 2019 IIRC. Not saying his overall play is as good but they’re aren’t many forwards in the PL with stats as good other than the elite ones like Haaland.
 
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