Rorschach
Sonny Walters
You would think this would spell the end for Netanyahu but he has a knack for clinging on to power
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Sick sick world what is wrong with people
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
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monkeybarry
Jack Jull
I think it explains why the Israeli response is so savage. It's easy to forget that whilst Israel are the victims of a hideous and brutal terrorist attack, they are also ruled by a right wing government.
That in large part is where trying to hold Israel to the Geneva convention is so hard - the GC wasn't really designed for the kind of Govt Israel has, or how politics has become globally in the past decade.
Slightly separate debate, but the GC is probably no longer fit for purpose in its current state - it isn't set up for geurilla warfare; as good as it is, it still relies on the western privilege position of "following the rules of war in a gentlemanly way", which in and of itself is a hangover from European colonialism.
Is that applicable to the Middle East? Probably not since the end of the Ottoman empire.
I still don't think he'll hold on - not stopping the attack will be enough. Although the "decisive" response will minimise his political loses.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
I would recommend listening to the interviews Sangita Myska has undertaken on LBC since 1pm.
Especially the one with Israeli Gov spokesman, Mr Levy (I can't spell his first name).
Combined with an interview with a senior member of the IDF (bald guy, sounds Scottish), it is very clear that Israel isn't going to regard international law and will deflect at every opportunity.
I'm not passing judgement there - see all my previous posts re: this may actually be the only choice and/or the rules of war not being realistic here.
That said, it seems to me there are two options:
I. Give a wider window for people to flee
II. Don't target with bombs the areas where Hamas are using significant human shields. IE Hospitals. Use an on the ground, intelligence led approach. Think SAS type activity. This is the responsible way to minimise civilian casualties.
All that said, I'm not a military strategist, and ideology isn't always applicable in war.
Secondly, see above - Israel is a right wing government, so it's no surprise they are acting like one.
Especially the one with Israeli Gov spokesman, Mr Levy (I can't spell his first name).
Combined with an interview with a senior member of the IDF (bald guy, sounds Scottish), it is very clear that Israel isn't going to regard international law and will deflect at every opportunity.
I'm not passing judgement there - see all my previous posts re: this may actually be the only choice and/or the rules of war not being realistic here.
That said, it seems to me there are two options:
I. Give a wider window for people to flee
II. Don't target with bombs the areas where Hamas are using significant human shields. IE Hospitals. Use an on the ground, intelligence led approach. Think SAS type activity. This is the responsible way to minimise civilian casualties.
All that said, I'm not a military strategist, and ideology isn't always applicable in war.
Secondly, see above - Israel is a right wing government, so it's no surprise they are acting like one.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I was wondering today why a ground led offensive was not used, being a neighbouring state you would think the use of Intel, Intel from disenfranchised locals and covert ops would be the best way to smoke out members of Hamas.
Obviously easier said than done and a longer game, also doesn't quench the thirst for revenge either. But you would have thought given its a terrorist organisation that they would have been monitoring then 24/7 anyway
Craig_J
Mido
I'm sure Israel's Minister of National Security, Ben Gvir - who just last week said spitting on Christians isn't criminal, quote: 'Israelis spitting on Christians is an old Jewish Tradition" - will be rubbing his hands with absolute joy.
He spent his life trying to make Arabs as uncomfortable as possible - proudly displaying the picture of a terrorist who attacked a mosque on his wall.
He bear baited for an entire year since he came into office. Attended occupied Temple Mount/ Al-Asqa just to rile everyone up.
Now after patiently continuing his baiting and encouraging settlers to kill Arabs, take their homes and destroy their livelihoods - he's got his excuse to kill as many brown people as he wants.
totalspurs
Jason Cundy
I don't know if this has already been posted, but a very interesting view point from Daniel Levy (not our Levy) on BBC News...
Thought it was worth sharing and to try and understand that there are other ways than retaliation and war.
Unfortunately the Americans and European Governments are not putting pressure on Israel to consider other options, they are supporting Israel to take pursue any action it sees as appropriate, even if that action is unacceptable under international law.
It's like officialising a lawful "Purge" scenario in the real world. The rest of the world will watch it unfold on TV, grimacing and shaking our heads but accepting it as we watch Palestinian human beings are massacred in an "acceptable" genocide.
Thought it was worth sharing and to try and understand that there are other ways than retaliation and war.
Unfortunately the Americans and European Governments are not putting pressure on Israel to consider other options, they are supporting Israel to take pursue any action it sees as appropriate, even if that action is unacceptable under international law.
It's like officialising a lawful "Purge" scenario in the real world. The rest of the world will watch it unfold on TV, grimacing and shaking our heads but accepting it as we watch Palestinian human beings are massacred in an "acceptable" genocide.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
The issue is, unfortunately that very much like the "Hamas want all Jews dead" the western world believes there is more value to some lives than others, its the reason we so easily glean over Iraq and now are happy to see a frankly laughable reclassification of the word "defence" to justify killing hundred if not thousands of innocent people. Its really fine lines between the two now, if you consider its acceptable to slaughter innocent people its more than likely because its comes with equal prejudice against their religion or colour of their skin.
dawaxman
Gheorge Popescu
Two points from me
1. If Israel didn't care about Palestinian civilians, gaza would have already been reduced to rubble. They have the power to have done that
2. Ground strikes are being used and understand that by doing this, they are significantly increasing the risks to their own soldiers just to save civilian life
1. If Israel didn't care about Palestinian civilians, gaza would have already been reduced to rubble. They have the power to have done that
2. Ground strikes are being used and understand that by doing this, they are significantly increasing the risks to their own soldiers just to save civilian life
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
There had been some pressure from the US to turn the water back on and that seems to have happened. Behind the scenes, Blinken and Sullivan are very much attempting to shape the way this Israeli offensive will go and how it will affect the wider geopolitical picture. As bad as the situation is now this could escalate rapidly into something far worse.
I would recommend the last episode of Behind the Lines (Arthur Snell) where they discuss this.
Edit: I read now the water was only turned on in the South of Gaza, not everywhere.
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AuroRaman
Chris Armstrong
Point 1. The only reason the Israeli Government hasn’t ordered that is because that would be a step too far even for them. There would be zero goodwill left from people in the middle and their biggest supporters would HAVE to condemn the action. Right now we live in an upside-down world where our own government isn’t batting an eyelid at the Israeli army bombing fleeing, innocent civilians.
Point 2. Yes, that’s called warfare. Israel aren’t being altruistic towards Palestinian civilians for using their soldiers as…soldiers.
dawaxman
Gheorge Popescu
1. Yes, saying the same thing as me. Israel are considering the lives of civilians... the reason for them considering these lives could be debated but they are considering civilians
2. The media narrative is that Israel is shelling gaza, but they're conducting grounds strikes to minimise civilian harm
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
Re; 1. No. Significant obliteration Vs Absolute obliteration is not looking out for anything other than Israels political justification.
Listen to the LBC interview this afternoon (Myska and Levy) - she pushes the point about timings, hospitals, attacking civilian conveys. You'll hear everything you need to in what Levy says, doesn't say, and avoids.
Also, the latest episode of The Rest is Politics covers a hell of a lot, especially about judgement and how emotionally involved the local players are.
AuroRaman
Chris Armstrong
We are not saying the same thing. You said the Israeli government ‘care’ about civilians, I’m saying their actions don’t represent this. I’m also calling out the terrorist, war-crime actions of the Israeli government for bombing innocent civilians they ordered to leave via ‘safe routes’.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
724 kids have been killed in the bombardment so far. Israel does not 'care' about civilian casualties.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Hamas certainly has no regard for civilian life either, zero, but a state should hold itself to higher standards than a terrorist organisation.
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
Israel just wants to wipe that place off the earth and rebuild there
It’s clear as day
Hamas are scum bags no doubt but that doesn’t make Palestinians the same
It would be like judging all of us in the UK on the basis of the Tories being in power
Israel always has, and likely always will, had a free pass regardless of their actions. Very rare is there any meaningful condemnation of their actions past or present.
Now they have an excuse to "cleanse" Gazza on a greater level than ever before all in the name of wiping out Hamas - civilians be damned.
A land incursion would be far better placed to succeed and to minimise the civilian casualties, but no let's just indiscriminately drops bombs instead.
What's happened is an absolute atrocity, but you don't rectify that by tit-for-tat.
Now they have an excuse to "cleanse" Gazza on a greater level than ever before all in the name of wiping out Hamas - civilians be damned.
A land incursion would be far better placed to succeed and to minimise the civilian casualties, but no let's just indiscriminately drops bombs instead.
What's happened is an absolute atrocity, but you don't rectify that by tit-for-tat.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
People would just find another excuse. Race, class hell even football teams. It's what humans do.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
Also as much as I would prefer a Labour government to the current shambles, wtf was Starmer thinking by saying it was ok for Israel to withhold water and power in Gaza? I don't understand, you can show that you are not antisemitic while also showing compassion for innocent Palestinians. It doesn't have to be the all or nothing viewpoint that this conflict seems to engender.