Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[dawaxman]

To be fair I did post the entire context of the paragraph you wrote that sentence in. It was it's own paragraph.

To add more context you're currently defending what a UN special rapporteur said constitutes a crime against humanity as "better than the alternatives". I don't know. Maybe consider more alternatives before going for the crime against humanity one.

For a bit more context you describe that only a very small percentage aren't huge supporters of hamas. When 37% (not a very small percentage) of Palestinians are 0-14 years old. So even if all adults supported Hamas your claim wouldn't hold.

And you're consistently putting the blame for the suffering of innocent Palestinians almost exclusively at the hands of Hamas.

That one sentence does look slightly better in context than entirely removed from context I agree. Slightly. Congratulations, you're not directly spreading explicit hate speech.

Should I have instead stated the vast majority of the adult population of gaza? Splitting hairs much? You understand the point but you try to retort by claiming there's kids in the region.... that's irrelevant to the fact that the vast majority of adults are supporters of Hamas

Anyway, check out this video and educate yourself a bit more:

 

[totalspurs]

When the the discussion on this group started there was a big attempt to have some intellectual dialogue, many posters were pro Israel and many were pro Palestine. But the sharing of differing views was respectfully... unfortunately, in my opinion, Zionists social media botters seamed to have piped up on what was taking place here and intervened to doing what they do best by infiltrating forums and shaping their agenda. Posting degrading anti Palestinian posts trying to change the tone of discussion. Such a shame...but happens all the time...

 

[tommysvr]

Should I have instead stated the vast majority of the adult population of gaza? Splitting hairs much? You understand the point but you try to retort by claiming there's kids in the region.... that's irrelevant to the fact that the vast majority of adults are supporters of Hamas

Anyway, check out this video and educate yourself a bit more:

You’ve come across as extremely arrogant on this topic since you first posted in this thread (“I’m Jewish I’ve been to Israel so I know the most.”)

Posting a random YouTube video (a clearly biased video) and telling someone to “educate yourself” is not a great look. You’d do well to follow some of the posters on here, who are posting thoughtfully and without antagonisation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I agree actions speak louder than words.

The Israeli government bombed fleeing, innocent Gazans they ordered to evacuate from the north to the south, via ‘safe routes’. They entrapped them, mainly women and children. Human Rights Watch and reporters on the ground have reported that white phosphorous is being used in civilian areas. Illegal chemical weapons. Journalists who are reporting on this are being killed. Prominent figures on the ground in Gaza are having their content and/or accounts deleted for sharing the truth of the situation right now. No basic provisions for hospitals and infrastructure to run. But of course it’s deserved because the ‘majority’ of Gazans are supporters of Hamas. Even though 50% of the population are not of voting age and the last elections were held in 2006.

This is genocide and ethnic cleansing by every metric occurring right now. And yet we are attempting to silence and judge posters on here who are simply being human for seeing evil actions regardless of borders, ethnicity or religion. The world is broken when we only value the life and mourn the death of babies on one side.

I agree harming innocent people in Gaza is deplorable. I don’t believe it’s genocide currently and many of the things you’re outlining are not being reported in main stream media. How would you have reacted to the atrocities carried out by Hamas in Isreal? I agree with those who believe Isreal is falling into Hamas trap - it wants conflict and to drag Isreal into war. Do you agree Hamas is akin to Isis?

 

[SpurMeUp]

So according to you I agree with swathes of Israelis. I agree. Wish there were even more. At least enough to get more people with similar views into power.

So I'm having a go, treated someone as an opponent you say.

What's your opinion on the statement "Palestine at the moment = hamas"? Which I see as just one of several... problematic(?) statements in the post I quoted.

I wonder how much consensus there is to be found between my opinion and "Palestine at the moment = hamas".

I would have thought that someone who cares about not perpetuating conflict and in-groups may have something to say in response to a sentence such as "Palestine at the moment = hamas".

Surely there must be something that can be said in response to that? I do get the feeling "problematic" just isn't the right description. Any suggestions? Any at all? I'm quite sure I don't like that kind of statement. Do you? But how to classify it, that's the conundrum. I get that tip of my tongue feeling, but can't quite find it.

I don’t really understand your equation/statement. If you’re trying to say that Isreal is treating Palestine as though it is all “Hamas” I would say that was inaccurate. They just tried to separate Palestinians from Hamas.

Hamas - normal people = war. Essentially. No wonder Hamas don’t want innocent people to go, they shamelessly use them as a human shield. Do you agree?

 

[SpurMeUp]

When the the discussion on this group started there was a big attempt to have some intellectual dialogue, many posters were pro Israel and many were pro Palestine. But the sharing of differing views was respectfully... unfortunately, in my opinion, Zionists social media botters seamed to have piped up on what was taking place here and intervened to doing what they do best by infiltrating forums and shaping their agenda. Posting degrading anti Palestinian posts trying to change the tone of discussion. Such a shame...but happens all the time...

Why not outline what is wrong with the posts you dislike then? Practice what you preach. I find it distasteful not to consider views you don’t agree with and question them for being inaccurate in an intelligent way.

The problem I have with anti-zionists is mirrored in this post - it’s a lament and offers nothing pragmatic or forward thinking. Just a historic moan about the wrongs of the past. And in history there are lists of ills. Most of history and conquest is unjust by our modern standards.

A question in the spirit of intellectual dialog: which came first Zionists or antisemitism?

 

[AuroRaman]

I really do hope you're wrong, the sources you use are wrong or you're just drawing the wrong conclusions.

This is one mainstream source for the evacuee bombings: https://x.com/msnbc/status/1712911792106602608?s=46

There is an abundance of ‘on the ground’ footage and reports which I won’t post on here but it can be found easily. Shaun King, a brilliant activist in the States is collecting footage and reports from young journalists and in-situ accounts to share on his platforms (please be warned some of his posts are distressing viewing). He is currently being threatened to have his Meta accounts shut-down and is already shadow-banned. He is also assisting Israeli families of kidnap victims.

I believe more mainstream reports on this will filter through as the groundswell of footage is becoming overwhelming. 25 deaths during the ‘safe route’ convoy bombings and counting at the moment

Human Rights Watch report on white phosphorous usage https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon

This has also been verified by Reuters journalists and local press

re: Journalists and crew. This is ONE report of many, Reuters journalist and cameraman Issam Abdullah killed in action https://x.com/reuters/status/1712962668825551050?s=46

Media convoy, clearly marked, bombed in Lebanon. Reuters and Al Jazeera have reported on crew killings in Gaza whilst clearly marked as press. Sky journo in-situ has verified this too. My unverified take on this but with ‘skin in the game’ is that media with live links capabilities are being targeted to shut down scenes to the outside world. With the electricity situation in Gaza as it is, the region could be shut-off from having eyes within in the coming days.

 

[Lost Mango]

Sorry but what a complete and total load of old gonad*s

All of it

As I said this is a summary from various documents (including the Hamas Charter of 2006 and interpretations of it, of their current position. They haven't renounced their founding Charter, which is for the full destruction of Israel, but they 'claim' to have changed it to a less extreme position.

It may not be what they are practicing but it is their stated current position.

I tried not to put shade on it but posted it in response to someone saying that Hamas's current position was that they wanted pre-67 borders, which, officially, it is. And to your statement that they 'wanted to wipe out "ALL jews". which officially it isn't.

But it is no more gonads than your comments that Palestinians have control of their own destiny and have free movement in and out of Gaza. What they actually have is fairly similar to the Bantustans of South Africa.

To add context of what 'my skin in the game' is I have lived and worked for a short period of time in Golan. I have a small circle of friends and acquaintances from there and other parts of the world who are Israeli and Palestinian. My bias comes from those experiences, their narrated lived experiences and my totally secular view of the world and dislike of theocracies.

 

[braineclipse]

This is one mainstream source for the evacuee bombings: https://x.com/msnbc/status/1712911792106602608?s=46

There is an abundance of ‘on the ground’ footage and reports which I won’t post on here but it can be found easily. Shaun King, a brilliant activist in the States is collecting footage and reports from young journalists and in-situ accounts to share on his platforms (please be warned some of his posts are distressing viewing). He is currently being threatened to have his Meta accounts shut-down and is already shadow-banned. He is also assisting Israeli families of kidnap victims.

I believe more mainstream reports on this will filter through as the groundswell of footage is becoming overwhelming. 25 deaths during the ‘safe route’ convoy bombings and counting at the moment

Human Rights Watch report on white phosphorous usage https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon

This has also been verified by Reuters journalists and local press

re: Journalists and crew. This is ONE report of many, Reuters journalist and cameraman Issam Abdullah killed in action https://x.com/reuters/status/1712962668825551050?s=46

Media convoy, clearly marked, bombed in Lebanon. Reuters and Al Jazeera have reported on crew killings in Gaza whilst clearly marked as press. Sky journo in-situ has verified this too. My unverified take on this but with ‘skin in the game’ is that media with live links capabilities are being targeted to shut down scenes to the outside world. With the electricity situation in Gaza as it is, the region could be shut-off from having eyes within in the coming days.

Just to be clear. I didn't doubt you or your ability to use solid sources. I've seen similar myself. It was more an expression of what probably is a futile hope.

 

[AuroRaman]

I agree harming innocent people in Gaza is deplorable. I don’t believe it’s genocide currently and many of the things you’re outlining are not being reported in main stream media. How would you have reacted to the atrocities carried out by Hamas in Isreal? I agree with those who believe Isreal is falling into Hamas trap - it wants conflict and to drag Isreal into war. Do you agree Hamas is akin to Isis?

Links provided in my post to @braineclipse

To note of the claims of ‘beheadeed babies’ in the Hamas attacks. This is still unverified and journalists who reported on this have run it back and apologised for inaccuracy. The White House and the Israeli Government office themselves had to confirm that the reports were unverified only after they’d release statements around the claim.

You’re welcome to your opinion of what genocide is or isn’t, I’m taking mine from its actual definition and tallying that to what is happening on the ground and documented by global human rights organisations.

I absolutely agree Hamas is akin to Isis. In the video Dawaxman posted earlier of the Hamas’ leaders son (I think?), it’s clear their recruitment and indoctrination tactics are in line with other terror organisations in the region such as Al Qaeda and Isis.

What would I do? I would use the incredible Arsenal at our disposal and our allies (SAS, Marines, Mossad etc) to infiltrate and take out Hamas leaders and cells. That’s what they are trained to do and the worlds best at. On the ground and secret surveillance operations. I’m under no illusion that this would cause civilian deaths but compared to 6000 bombs dropped on a tiny strip of land in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet with no safe routes out, call me crazy and naive but I think my way would achieve objectives to eradicate Hamas much more efficiently and without creating more sympathisers and recruits to their vile cause.

To repeat. 6000 bombs dropped on ‘Hamas targets’

https://x.com/iafsite/status/1712484101763342772?s=46

 

[AuroRaman]

Just to be clear. I didn't doubt you or your ability to use solid sources. I've seen similar myself. It was more an expression of what probably is a futile hope.

No problem, I understood the context.

 

[AuroRaman]

Tremendous post TBH mate. Its possible as a human to show extreme levels of empathy for both sides and not feel bullied into the idea of apparently picking a side.

People need to be more human, empathy should be indiscriminate and for that reason we absolutely have to acknowledge both sets of atrocities equally

Appreciate this mate, thank you and fully agree.

 

[braineclipse]

I don’t really understand your equation/statement. If you’re trying to say that Isreal is treating Palestine as though it is all “Hamas” I would say that was inaccurate. They just tried to separate Palestinians from Hamas.

Hamas - normal people = war. Essentially. No wonder Hamas don’t want innocent people to go, they shamelessly use them as a human shield. Do you agree?

Tried to separate Palestinians from Hamas by potentially committing a crime against humanity?

I guess there is some moral distinction between using civilians as a human shield and some forms of crimes against humanity?

I'd suggest holding your own side to a higher moral standard than that. The standard you're applying to my posts is to avoid language that perpetuates conflict or in groups. Is it but fair to ask you to use the same standard towards your own side?

"You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

 

[braineclipse]

Links provided in my post to @braineclipse

To note, you repeated the claims of ‘beheadeed babies’ in the Hamas attacks. This is still unverified and journalists who reported on this have run it back and apologised for inaccuracy. The White House and the Israeli Government office themselves had to confirm that the reports were unverified only after they’d release statements around the claim.

You’re welcome to your opinion of what genocide is or isn’t, I’m taking mine from its actual definition and tallying that to what is happening on the ground and documented by global human rights organisations.

I absolutely agree Hamas is akin to Isis. In the video Dawaxman posted earlier of the Hamas’ leaders son (I think?), it’s clear their recruitment and indoctrination tactics are in line with other terror organisations in the region such as Al Qaeda and Isis.

What would I do? I would use the incredible Arsenal at our disposal and our allies (SAS, Marines, Mossad etc) to infiltrate and take out Hamas leaders and cells. That’s what they are trained to do and the worlds best at. On the ground and secret surveillance operations. I’m under no illusion that this would cause civilian deaths but compared to 6000 bombs dropped on a tiny strip of land in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet with no safe routes out, call me crazy and naive but I think my way would achieve objectives to eradicate Hamas much more efficiently and without creating more sympathisers and recruits to their vile cause.

To repeat. 6000 bombs dropped on ‘Hamas targets’

https://x.com/iafsite/status/1712484101763342772?s=46

Could it be that there may be some link between certain living conditions and people ending up joining extremist groups such as ISIS or Hamas?

 

[AuroRaman]

Could it be that there may be some link between certain living conditions and people ending up joining extremist groups such as ISIS or Hamas?

100%

Indoctrination is a tactic often used but rarely as successful as the biggest recruitment tactic for these groups, desperation and despair of innocent civilians who have seen their families and way of life torn apart. I believe our governments are complicit in that recruitment process. It’s a bare-faced lie to say the majority of the Palestinian population are pro-Hamas. There is an abundance of younger people wishing for an end to the conflict and free movement to experience a way of life away from the depravity of occupation. Iran has the same ‘problem’ with the vast majority of the younger generation campaigning (and dying) for a more secular environment.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Links provided in my post to @braineclipse

To note, you repeated the claims of ‘beheadeed babies’ in the Hamas attacks. This is still unverified and journalists who reported on this have run it back and apologised for inaccuracy. The White House and the Israeli Government office themselves had to confirm that the reports were unverified only after they’d release statements around the claim.

You’re welcome to your opinion of what genocide is or isn’t, I’m taking mine from its actual definition and tallying that to what is happening on the ground and documented by global human rights organisations.

I absolutely agree Hamas is akin to Isis. In the video Dawaxman posted earlier of the Hamas’ leaders son (I think?), it’s clear their recruitment and indoctrination tactics are in line with other terror organisations in the region such as Al Qaeda and Isis.

What would I do? I would use the incredible Arsenal at our disposal and our allies (SAS, Marines, Mossad etc) to infiltrate and take out Hamas leaders and cells. That’s what they are trained to do and the worlds best at. On the ground and secret surveillance operations. I’m under no illusion that this would cause civilian deaths but compared to 6000 bombs dropped on a tiny strip of land in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet with no safe routes out, call me crazy and naive but I think my way would achieve objectives to eradicate Hamas much more efficiently and without creating more sympathisers and recruits to their vile cause.

To repeat. 6000 bombs dropped on ‘Hamas targets’

https://x.com/iafsite/status/1712484101763342772?s=46

Where did I repeat the claims of "beheadeed babies"? Hmmm. If you are misquoting me here it doesn't fill me with confidence.

You are making hugely strong claims of genocide and ethnic cleansing, that four other posters liked. Base on Twitter. You may be correct. But with online echo chambers, we all should ensure we don't band around such points lightly. Which definition, and which events on the ground?

I didn't watch the vid, but you only need to look at the recent Hamas actions. We have seen it in many places around the world, unrelated to Israel. Such fanatical groups are just death cults. For me they don't represent Islam or religion. They use religion to recruit and legitimise the most inhumane acts. While I don't believe Israeli violence is the answer, we've seen the UK and other nations react with violence. But without the same condemnation. The London Bridge attackers were shot dead. Do we condemn that? Of course not.

What you outline is more or less what Israel is trying to do, is it not? I completely agree that indiscriminate bombing is deplorable. But we don't know if it is indiscriminate. I am sure it was targeted. But even this I agree is wrong if it kills innocent people. I go back to Martin Luther King who just sums it all up perfectly for me:

Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding.

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.


There are many in Isreal who believe the same. But as in the UK and everywhere else there are many who want retribution. I am almost always anti-violence. It just leads to more.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Tried to separate Palestinians from Hamas by potentially committing a crime against humanity?

I guess there is some moral distinction between using civilians as a human shield and some forms of crimes against humanity?

I'd suggest holding your own side to a higher moral standard than that. The standard you're applying to my posts is to avoid language that perpetuates conflict or in groups. Is it but fair to ask you to use the same standard towards your own side?

"You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

You'd prefer that Isreal didn't try to get innocent people out of the way? Then you could come on here and post about it, and it would make you right? It does seem to me you want Isreal to be in the wrong.

Please do not infer brick onto me or make assumptions about others. It is not my side. Others have been criticised by 'your side' for being arogent and presumptious. I'd suggest you refrain from making sweeping statements about other people's moral standards, especially when they are inncorrect. You liked a post re. ethnic cleansing and genocide, I'd suggest checking your own moral standards first and foremost.

 

[dawaxman]

You’ve come across as extremely arrogant on this topic since you first posted in this thread (“I’m Jewish I’ve been to Israel so I know the most.”)

Posting a random YouTube video (a clearly biased video) and telling someone to “educate yourself” is not a great look. You’d do well to follow some of the posters on here, who are posting thoughtfully and without antagonisation.

Did you watch the video? Can you refute any of the facts in it? If its biased, which of the many facts are incorrect? Easy to claim it's biased and I'm arrogant, and in doing so avoid addressing the facts that it states, that break your arguments about the ownership of the land and actions of the hamas

If you can refute any of the facts, I'm listening

If you can't, you have to acknowledge that your previously held views were incorrect

 

[AuroRaman]

...and they just went and killed a bunch of Jewish people partying. Beheaded people, babies...think that tells you everything you need to know. Actions speak louder than words!

.

 

[AuroRaman]

Where did I repeat the claims of "beheadeed babies"? Hmmm. If you are misquoting me here it doesn't fill me with confidence.

You are making hugely strong claims of genocide and ethnic cleansing, that four other posters liked. Base on Twitter. You may be correct. But with online echo chambers, we all should ensure we don't band around such points lightly. Which definition, and which events on the ground?

I didn't watch the vid, but you only need to look at the recent Hamas actions. We have seen it in many places around the world, unrelated to Israel. Such fanatical groups are just death cults. For me they don't represent Islam or religion. They use religion to recruit and legitimise the most inhumane acts. While I don't believe Israeli violence is the answer, we've seen the UK and other nations react with violence. But without the same condemnation. The London Bridge attackers were shot dead. Do we condemn that? Of course not.

What you outline is more or less what Israel is trying to do, is it not? I completely agree that indiscriminate bombing is deplorable. But we don't know if it is indiscriminate. I am sure it was targeted. But even this I agree is wrong if it kills innocent people. I go back to Martin Luther King who just sums it all up perfectly for me:

Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding.

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.


There are many in Isreal who believe the same. But as in the UK and everywhere else there are many who want retribution. I am almost always anti-violence. It just leads to more.

These are not online echo chambers. Very clearly not. I’m not going to post footage but it’s out there and is not open to any interpretation other than what it is. I am also not repeating Twitter speak regarding ethnic cleansing snd genocide. As I very clearly expressed. I would suggest you take your own advice.