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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

SpurMeUp said:
It intimates hundreds of thousands were killed, which they were not. Already covered - see above. Boring repeating it. I think you are wrong, most people want peace and don't want innocent people killed. You have to build from there - rather than you did wrong, no you did.
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I would ascribe that to the usual issues of human communication rather than malice.

I'm not arguing for a "you did wrong, no you did" approach. We've seen plenty of that, now and before. I'm obviously struggling to make myself clear enough here if that's the impression you're left with on my opinion.

I'm arguing for a "we did wrong" approach, from both sides including from people in leadership positions.

As far as I know we don't have many Palestinian posters on this board. If we had and they posted only about Israeli wrongdoing, calling a focus on historical or recent wrongdoing from the Palestinian side whataboutery I would essentially have the same conversation with them. You need to acknowledge the historical and recent wrongdoing on the Palestinian side. You need to use that to try to better your understanding of Israeli actions.
 
Rorschach said:
This piece in Haaretz is quite powerful
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/202...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

archived here -> https://archive.ph/vFXm0
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Powerful in deed. Thanks for sharing.

And to summarise my opinion on what I see as at least a potential path towards some marginal improvement over time. More of this. More of this from more people on both sides. Hopefully in time leading to more people with real power holding and expressing similar opinions.

And yes, I do have a bias here. I think there's more responsibility for doing more of this on the Israeli side. Because they have more military power in this conflict. They have more financial power. They have better living conditions. They have a functional power grid and medical system. Etc. Etc. If they can't, how on earth could one expect the Palestinian side to do this.
 
braineclipse said:
I would ascribe that to the usual issues of human communication rather than malice.

I'm not arguing for a "you did wrong, no you did" approach. We've seen plenty of that, now and before. I'm obviously struggling to make myself clear enough here if that's the impression you're left with on my opinion.

I'm arguing for a "we did wrong" approach, from both sides including from people in leadership positions.

As far as I know we don't have many Palestinian posters on this board. If we had and they posted only about Israeli wrongdoing, calling a focus on historical or recent wrongdoing from the Palestinian side whataboutery I would essentially have the same conversation with them. You need to acknowledge the historical and recent wrongdoing on the Palestinian side. You need to use that to try to better your understanding of Israeli actions.
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Inverting ‘you did wrong’, to what I did wrong, has the same issues. It turns into 'Why didn't you admit this and that'. It really doesn’t go anywhere. Well it does - backwards for 3000 years. Is it productive? I don't think so. There is enough existing retribution, mistakes made, and violence. If you focus on this you get stuck in years of history. Have a look at the Good Friday agreement that was signed in Northern Ireland. Most didn't think it was possible. But if you focus on the future and creating better lives for both sides, there is more than enough there to reach agreements provided both sides make some concessions.
 
Stop referring to this as Israel vs Palestine, this week it is not that

This week, and for the coming weeks, it's Israel vs hamas

Hamas is a terrorist organisation with a stated mandate to eradicate the Jews

Stop talking about Israel needing to understand why hamas did what it did

They aren't doing it for any other reason than their stated mandate to eradicate Jews

It has nothing to do with the conditions in Palestine, because hamas themselves are partly/mostly responsible for that

The situation between Israel and Palestine over the last 16 years has been worsened because hamas is in power there, not because Israel is bad

In those 16 years, has Israel done things that we, in the west, look upon as excessive or unfair or war-like? Yes. But its in response to continual and constant attacks from hamas in that region.


Every time you try to justify the planned and purposeful killings of women, children and the elderly in Israel by showing pictures of war-torn gaza, remember that hamas has headquarters beneath a hospital, they launch rockets from inside schools and use their own people as human shields during battles

These aren't normal war conditions

Stop trying to use logic or claim that there is equal fault

Do we want an end to the Israel/Palestine conflict? Of course we do

But that's impossible whilst hamas is in power

How do you negotiate with terrorists? How do you negotiate with people whose stated mandate is to eradicate your entire country?

It's not about 10 miles, 100 miles or lower fences etc.

Any and all funds Palestine has received from around the world has been funneled into artillery to destroy the Jews, when any other government who has their peoples best interest at heart would have spent it on infrastructure

If gaza looks like a developing country next to the developed Israel, blame hamas

Stop victimising Jews

Stop painting swastikas at my local train station

Stop celebrating the death of innocent people because you think it's fair game

Understand what it must be like, as a moderate person, to live next door to a terrorist governed country who wants the death of you and all like you

Palestine at the moment = hamas

Any innocent people there have been screwed by their own government but the sad truth is that a very small percentage aren't huge supporters of hamas - the terrorist organisation that wants the death of all Jews
 
SpurMeUp said:
Inverting ‘you did wrong’, to what I did wrong, has the same issues. It turns into 'Why didn't you admit this and that'. It really doesn’t go anywhere. Well it does - backwards for 3000 years. Is it productive? I don't think so. There is enough existing retribution, mistakes made, and violence. If you focus on this you get stuck in years of history. Have a look at the Good Friday agreement that was signed in Northern Ireland. Most didn't think it was possible. But if you focus on the future and creating better lives for both sides, there is more than enough there to reach agreements provided both sides make some concessions.
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Take opinions like the one linked by Rorschach above. That's just of no use, just leads to more retribution? Been tried enough including from leaders and just gets everyone bogged down in history?

My impression is that Israel has been mostly unapologetic about the negative consequences of their actions on the Palestinian people. Do you disagree?

Been a long time since I've educated myself on the good friday agreement. A good understanding of, and empathy for, the grievances of the other sides was of little to no importance in reaching that agreement then?
 
dawaxman said:
Every time you try to justify the planned and purposeful killings of women, children and the elderly in Israel by showing pictures of war-torn gaza, remember that hamas has headquarters beneath a hospital, they launch rockets from inside schools and use their own people as human shields during battles
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You’ve posted this numerous times. I think it’s time you quoted those who’ve apparently said it.
 
braineclipse said:
Take opinions like the one linked by Rorschach above. That's just of no use, just leads to more retribution? Been tried enough including from leaders and just gets everyone bogged down in history?

My impression is that Israel has been mostly unapologetic about the negative consequences of their actions on the Palestinian people. Do you disagree?

Been a long time since I've educated myself on the good friday agreement. A good understanding of, and empathy for, the grievances of the other sides was of little to no importance in reaching that agreement then?
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Would that make it acceptable if Israel simply apologised each day, during their war on terror?

Not sure I see much by the way of apologies coming from hamas

Mainly I see celebrating

Whereas Israel is doing what they feel justified in doing in a resolute "we're defending our people" way

If hamas was targeting the people responsible for killing/hurting their people, I'm pretty sure that beheading 40 babies wouldn't have been required
 
braineclipse said:
Take opinions like the one linked by Rorschach above. That's just of no use, just leads to more retribution? Been tried enough including from leaders and just gets everyone bogged down in history?

My impression is that Israel has been mostly unapologetic about the negative consequences of their actions on the Palestinian people. Do you disagree?

Been a long time since I've educated myself on the good friday agreement. A good understanding of, and empathy for, the grievances of the other sides was of little to no importance in reaching that agreement then?
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Yes exactly.

Paragraph 1 contradicting paragraph 2 was intended?

Look around you - just on this board - raking over the past will not help you reach a peace. Only forward thinking and planning can.
 
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dawaxman said:
Stop referring to this as Israel vs Palestine, this week it is not that

This week, and for the coming weeks, it's Israel vs hamas

Hamas is a terrorist organisation with a stated mandate to eradicate the Jews

Stop talking about Israel needing to understand why hamas did what it did

They aren't doing it for any other reason than their stated mandate to eradicate Jews

It has nothing to do with the conditions in Palestine, because hamas themselves are partly/mostly responsible for that

The situation between Israel and Palestine over the last 16 years has been worsened because hamas is in power there, not because Israel is bad

In those 16 years, has Israel done things that we, in the west, look upon as excessive or unfair or war-like? Yes. But its in response to continual and constant attacks from hamas in that region.


Every time you try to justify the planned and purposeful killings of women, children and the elderly in Israel by showing pictures of war-torn gaza, remember that hamas has headquarters beneath a hospital, they launch rockets from inside schools and use their own people as human shields during battles

These aren't normal war conditions

Stop trying to use logic or claim that there is equal fault

Do we want an end to the Israel/Palestine conflict? Of course we do

But that's impossible whilst hamas is in power

How do you negotiate with terrorists? How do you negotiate with people whose stated mandate is to eradicate your entire country?

It's not about 10 miles, 100 miles or lower fences etc.

Any and all funds Palestine has received from around the world has been funneled into artillery to destroy the Jews, when any other government who has their peoples best interest at heart would have spent it on infrastructure

If gaza looks like a developing country next to the developed Israel, blame hamas

Stop victimising Jews

Stop painting swastikas at my local train station

Stop celebrating the death of innocent people because you think it's fair game

Understand what it must be like, as a moderate person, to live next door to a terrorist governed country who wants the death of you and all like you

Palestine at the moment = hamas

Any innocent people there have been screwed by their own government but the sad truth is that a very small percentage aren't huge supporters of hamas - the terrorist organisation that wants the death of all Jews
Click to expand...

And then what? Do you imagine that this time Israel will defeat Hamas in armed conflict and be done with it? Do you imagine Israel will finally through sheer force will make the extremists stop hating Jews? Or will you kill all the extremists this time and then be done with it? And the non extremist people in Gaza during this time, there will not be further radicalisation and recruitment for Hamas?

Where does it end? When this part of the "Israel vs Hamas" conflict simmers down? Then what? Wait for the next attack, rinse and repeat? At what point do you stop?

Your take on this is as old as history. The results are predictable.

The difference between your views and the views given above as quoted by Rorschach are stark. Your views to me seem to be little less than the continuation of Israel's policies over the years. So on it goes, with the same results.

Seems you'll get your wish with how Israel responds. Do you see it leading towards an end of the conflict? What does that end look like to you?
 
braineclipse said:
And then what? Do you imagine that this time Israel will defeat Hamas in armed conflict and be done with it? Do you imagine Israel will finally through sheer force will make the extremists stop hating Jews? Or will you kill all the extremists this time and then be done with it? And the non extremist people in Gaza during this time, there will not be further radicalisation and recruitment for Hamas?

Where does it end? When this part of the "Israel vs Hamas" conflict simmers down? Then what? Wait for the next attack, rinse and repeat? At what point do you stop?

Your take on this is as old as history. The results are predictable.

The difference between your views and the views given above as quoted by Rorschach are stark. Your views to me seem to be little less than the continuation of Israel's policies over the years. So on it goes, with the same results.

Seems you'll get your wish with how Israel responds. Do you see it leading towards an end of the conflict? What does that end look like to you?
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Isn't it sad that we can't see beyond a world with no radical extremists? Israel is NOT a radical, extremist country

IF hamas were removed, then yes I do believe that for a period of time we might be able to enjoy some peace

Palestinians and Israelis CAN and DO live side by side currently, in Israel. They have jobs in Israel and then return to gaza. Israel does not hate the people of gaza...
 
dawaxman said:
Don't know how to do that multi quote thing, sorry

It's happened plenty over the last 10+ pages
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There’s no difference in adding one quote vs adding 10 to a post. You quoted mine ok, so I can only assume if you don’t quote people it’s because it wasn’t ever said in this thread.
 
AuroRaman said:
Has the baby beheading story been verified?
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Out of curiosity, have you (and rhetorically others) scrutinised/questioned the claims coming from gaza in the same way people are questioning this disgraceful act?

You see video footage of babies and children in gaza that are injured, but people don't for one second question it's veracity
 
tommysvr said:
There’s no difference in method adding one quote vs adding 10 to a post. You quoted mine ok, so I can only assume if you don’t quote people it’s because it wasn’t ever said in this thread.
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Yea OK, you're right. I've made it up

Thanks
 
dawaxman said:
Out of curiosity, have you (and rhetorically others) scrutinised/questioned the claims coming from gaza in the same way people are questioning this disgraceful act?

You see video footage of babies and children in gaza that are injured, but people don't for one second question it's veracity
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In my line of work, I am unfortunately at times exposed to stories and visual content of situations like this. There hadn’t been anything fully verified up to this morning, which is why a lot of news outlets are stating it as ‘unverified’.

I was asking a genuine question, not trying to discount the veracity of the claims.
 
braineclipse said:
And then what? Do you imagine that this time Israel will defeat Hamas in armed conflict and be done with it? Do you imagine Israel will finally through sheer force will make the extremists stop hating Jews? Or will you kill all the extremists this time and then be done with it? And the non extremist people in Gaza during this time, there will not be further radicalisation and recruitment for Hamas?

Where does it end? When this part of the "Israel vs Hamas" conflict simmers down? Then what? Wait for the next attack, rinse and repeat? At what point do you stop?

Your take on this is as old as history. The results are predictable.

The difference between your views and the views given above as quoted by Rorschach are stark. Your views to me seem to be little less than the continuation of Israel's policies over the years. So on it goes, with the same results.

Seems you'll get your wish with how Israel responds. Do you see it leading towards an end of the conflict? What does that end look like to you?
Click to expand...

Where did Dawaxman outline his beliefs on Israel’s policies? He has stated he is not comfortable with settlers and favours a two state solution! Seems like you just want a fight and are trying to erect straw men to argue with. And that is the wider issue here. Many people who are rightly or wrongly against Isreals actions jumping in without a great deal of knowledge, accusing people who are grieving and trying to deal with a barbaric act of terror, of being wrong.

Can you appreciate this is not a black-and-white issue? For you to have your bias, is itself polarising. It is hard to get out of an in-group here, but that is the crux of the conflict.
 
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