Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[P.D.]

Can I ask a genuine question of those people who are arguing in favour of the atrocities of Hamas (or as you'll phrase it, against the atrocities of Israel):

What is your skin in the game? Do you have Palestinian relatives or friends impacted by this?

If not, which I assume is likely the case, do you debate at length on any other world incident like this one?

What is your opinion on the DRC? How about Mauritania? Yemen? Syria?

There is a side conversation happening above where Scara is talking about the Irish conflict and is being corrected by someone who seems to be more knowledgeable than him

Is it frustrating to you when you see someone misrepresent the situation in Ireland through ignorance?

Personally, I'd not have a view there because I just don't know enough

Curious why there are so many Palestine experts on a Spurs football forum.... weird innit????

I've not seen anyone arguing in favour of Hamas on this board, only regret and sadness for the whole situation. I think everyone on here universally agrees that Hamas are hideous.

People naturally post about this more because it's the main story everywhere, rightly or wrongly people discuss current affairs. There has also been a fair amount of discussion over the Ughuyrs and Kurds here over the last couple of years too.

If people can only discuss things they're closely related to then we would rarely discuss anything at all. It's only through debate that people can learn and educate themselves. I can safely say that the level of debate on here is way above X which is basically unusable at the moment.

 

[glasgowspur]

Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding.

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I truely wish Isreal would heed Martin Luther King. The bombing of Gaza is almost an emotional knee-jerk, to appease a democractic angry grieving people. You can understand it. But violence begets violence. Isreal should take the moral high ground. Should find other ways than bludgening Gaza for the sake of retribution. Yes their attacks are targeted at Hamas and they phone innocent people in buildings to try and get them out, that is something I guess.

Great post, however it needs both sides to forgive and forget, to let past injustices go and move forward.
There is much to forgive on both sides, as there usually always is in conflicts of this nature, as was mentioned in an earlier post about NI (sorry can't remember who it was) look what the average citizen gains when peace returns.
What is more important the vengeance of your ancestors or the future of your children.

 

[Grays_1890]

I've not seen anyone arguing in favour of Hamas on this board, only regret and sadness for the whole situation. I think everyone on here universally agrees that Hamas are hideous.

People naturally post about this more because it's the main story everywhere, rightly or wrongly people discuss current affairs. There has also been a fair amount of discussion over the Ughuyrs and Kurds here over the last couple of years too.

If people can only discuss things they're closely related to then we would rarely discuss anything at all. It's only through debate that people can learn and educate themselves. I can safely say that the level of debate on here is way above X which is basically unusable at the moment.

I also believe that where others fail is the lack of discussion, being able to talk these things through, learn and educate, be educated is the way to a better world.

It's when people lose their ability to discuss you end up with stalemates which cause the majority of the worlds issues

 

[dawaxman]

The reason I was asking about skin in the game is because I'm the kind of person that listens to a debate when I don't have all the facts instead of weighing in with my opinion

I asked about skin in the game because I'm amazed that people who don't have family/friends directly affected are so well-educated on the topic

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't discuss it, but I am suggesting that those without skin in the game might not have all the facts.

When one does have skin in the game, they've read the whole book not just the cliff notes - if you'll accept my analogy

There's been quite a few responses to my emotive messages, all of which have taken a snippet or a sound bite of my lengthy posts, and twisted them somehow

To be clear, if you're not condemning Hamas without a "but" then you're disagreeing with me

And you're also not taking a moment to understand what it must be like for the Jews around the world, and in particular the citizens of Israel

The response will be "yeah but they've switched off the water supply to Palestine" or "they've killed Palestinians, so they've got blood on their hands" or "their leaders are fascists" or "they're on someone else's land" or "they've antagonised them" all of which is creating excuses for Hamas

I know I'm probably not going to "win" this debate, but I ask you to please watch this video, which gives you context not just of why this impacts ALL Jews, but also the honest truth as to why you may feel the way you do - you're not seeing the true evil, because you can't conceive it. I'm not saying that to be patronising... I'm saying it because it is the truth. You don't believe me when I say that hamas purposely uses Palestinian children as human shields by they do! Radical fundamentalist Muslims do this all over the world, but it's only in Israel where we try to find an excuse for it

Israel doesn't want to harm innocent Palestinian civilians, but they must protect themselves, they must

Wouldn't you want to if Hamas had murdered your children in cold blood? Not as collateral of a war, but a targeted assassination of your child in their nursery

Anyway, please please please, watch this video:

 

[monkeybarry]

The reason I was asking about skin in the game is because I'm the kind of person that listens to a debate when I don't have all the facts instead of weighing in with my opinion

I asked about skin in the game because I'm amazed that people who don't have family/friends directly affected are so well-educated on the topic

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't discuss it, but I am suggesting that those without skin in the game might not have all the facts.

When one does have skin in the game, they've read the whole book not just the cliff notes - if you'll accept my analogy

There's been quite a few responses to my emotive messages, all of which have taken a snippet or a sound bite of my lengthy posts, and twisted them somehow

To be clear, if you're not condemning Hamas without a "but" then you're disagreeing with me

And you're also not taking a moment to understand what it must be like for the Jews around the world, and in particular the citizens of Israel

The response will be "yeah but they've switched off the water supply to Palestine" or "they've killed Palestinians, so they've got blood on their hands" or "their leaders are fascists" or "they're on someone else's land" or "they've antagonised them" all of which is creating excuses for Hamas

I know I'm probably not going to "win" this debate, but I ask you to please watch this video, which gives you context not just of why this impacts ALL Jews, but also the honest truth as to why you may feel the way you do - you're not seeing the true evil, because you can't conceive it. I'm not saying that to be patronising... I'm saying it because it is the truth. You don't believe me when I say that hamas purposely uses Palestinian children as human shields by they do! Radical fundamentalist Muslims do this all over the world, but it's only in Israel where we try to find an excuse for it

Israel doesn't want to harm innocent Palestinian civilians, but they must protect themselves, they must

Wouldn't you want to if Hamas had murdered your children in cold blood? Not as collateral of a war, but a targeted assassination of your child in their nursery

Anyway, please please please, watch this video:

I think you are conflating:
-Pro Palestinian rights to exist and self governance
-Condemnation for Hamas
-Israeli land grabs
-Israeli treatment of Gaza (and Palestine generally, but especially Gaza)
-Israels right to protect itself

It is simplistic to say any one of these is the opposite of the other. All of these positions can, and do, coexist. They also exist as isolated opinions (which is why it's possible to condemn Hamas and also reference Israels atrocious behaviour. That isn't a "but", it's a holistic viewpoint. Few things in life are in silo, and this for sure isn't!)

As far as that video goes. That is a video of privilege. A video of hindsight and idealism. It overlooks the existence of wider socio economic impacts that lead to positions of absolute evil. Hitler didn't act alone. But he also didn't get to where he wanted without the impact of external players, many of whom now call themselves the "allies" or "victors". There are, of course, few victors in war. The narrowness of that video also justifies the positions and actions of both Israel and Hamas. (See my long post that concludes human generally just can't live together - a couple of pages back)

Anyone that can watch that video, then consider Netenyahu (sic) and the likes of Smotrich fit for office, well .... let's not pretend Israel is a nice Scandi nation.

You appear to equate Israel with Judaism. That is incorrect. Israel is not Judaism. Judaism is not Israel.
Re: impact on Jews around the world. Unfortunately yes, people are too damn stupid to separate out the Religion from the Nation state. Humans are stupid and evil. And us, in our nice east Western privileged bubbles, should (and for all the disagreements, I'm pretty sure everyone on here would) challenge that where it exists and support any Jews where needed. But that's about treating people fairly, it doesn't take away from Israel and Hamas being hideous.

Being anti Israel isn't being anti semetic. (Anti semites will be anti Israel, but the inverse isn't a given)
Being pro Palestine isn't being anti semetic, nor is it pro Hamas.
Equally, being pro Jew (is that the right term? It sounds wrong.) isn't being pro Israel.

 

[dawaxman]

I think you are conflating:
-Pro Palestinian rights to exist and self governance
-Condemnation for Hamas
-Israeli land grabs
-Israeli treatment of Gaza (and Palestine generally, but especially Gaza)
-Israels right to protect itself

It is simplistic to say any one of these is the opposite of the other. All of these positions can, and do, coexist. They also exist as isolated opinions (which is why it's possible to condemn Hamas and also reference Israels atrocious behaviour. That isn't a "but", it's a holistic viewpoint. Few things in life are in silo, and this for sure isn't!)

As far as that video goes. That is a video of privilege. A video of hindsight and idealism. It overlooks the existence of wider socio economic impacts that lead to positions of absolute evil. Hitler didn't act alone. But he also didn't get to where he wanted without the impact of external players, many of whom now call themselves the "allies" or "victors". There are, of course, few victors in war. The narrowness of that video also justifies the positions and actions of both Israel and Hamas. (See my long post that concludes human generally just can't live together - a couple of pages back)

Anyone that can watch that video, then consider Netenyahu (sic) and the likes of Smotrich fit for office, well .... let's not pretend Israel is a nice Scandi nation.

You appear to equate Israel with Judaism. That is incorrect. Israel is not Judaism. Judaism is not Israel.
Re: impact on Jews around the world. Unfortunately yes, people are too damn stupid to separate out the Religion from the Nation state. Humans are stupid and evil. And us, in our nice east Western privileged bubbles, should (and for all the disagreements, I'm pretty sure everyone on here would) challenge that where it exists and support any Jews where needed. But that's about treating people fairly, it doesn't take away from Israel and Hamas being hideous.

Being anti Israel isn't being anti semetic. (Anti semites will be anti Israel, but the inverse isn't a given)
Being pro Palestine isn't being anti semetic, nor is it pro Hamas.
Equally, being pro Jew (is that the right term? It sounds wrong.) isn't being pro Israel.

I can't argue with most of that, especially your opening points

But, how do you feel the Jewish diaspora feel when they see Palestine flags being paraded in celebration of the recent events in Jewish parts of the UK, US and Australia? Because that is equating Jews with Israel and hamas with righteousness

Think, if you will, how it makes relatives of holocaust victims feel? How it makes relatives of pogrom victims feel?

That is why I'm outraged... because, my fellow countrymen are celebrating what hamas are doing and chanting "gas the Jews" and if they're not actively doing that, then they should be vocally condemning the actions of hamas

But the silence is deafening

 

[DTA]

There is a lot in here.

But If you are suggest I’m anti Jewish you are off your rocker. I’m not that guy.

You are offended because I’m saying that the settlements in the west bank demonstrate that Israel is not being an honest participant in building a viable two state solution.

so show me how the settlements enhance the prospects of that mate?

While you’re at it show me how the settlements enhance Israel’s security? I can understand with the Golan heights but explain it to me with the West Bank settlements help a two state solution become a reality.

unless you don’t want a two state solution. If so tell us your plan?

now on to why I feel i can comment on a complex situation, do you have a PHD in every subject you talk about? I will say this though I have more knowledge about both sides of this situation than most people do.

tell me something, what are the things that Israel are doing wrong both historically and more recently?

Just for clarification, I have condemned Hamas’ actions without reservation and not just on here.

@dawaxman hi mate I would be interested in hearing your answer to these questions.

not to ‘win an argument’ but to understand your Stance better.

 

[braineclipse]

I can't argue with most of that, especially your opening points

But, how do you feel the Jewish diaspora feel when they see Palestine flags being paraded in celebration of the recent events in Jewish parts of the UK, US and Australia? Because that is equating Jews with Israel and hamas with righteousness

Think, if you will, how it makes relatives of holocaust victims feel? How it makes relatives of pogrom victims feel?

That is why I'm outraged... because, my fellow countrymen are celebrating what hamas are doing and chanting "gas the Jews" and if they're not actively doing that, then they should be vocally condemning the actions of hamas

But the silence is deafening

In your opinion can one condemn the violence from Hamas and also condemn actions Israel have made?

I really struggle to see how you get from people arguing against the atrocities of Israel to that being a support of the atrocities of Hamas.

I realise that you have skin in the game, that this is an emotional topic for you. I wish to be understanding and respectful of that. I probably don't always fully succeed at that, for that I apologise.

The Palestinians also have skin in the game. Could it be that there are perspectives on both sides regarding the understanding of the other side that get lost?

You ask for understanding of your side from people in general and people on this board. To learn more before speaking with certainty. I agree.

I realise I'm asking a lot, on a difficult and emotional topic. But I do think it's fair to ask you for the same understanding towards Palestinians as you're asking people to have for Israel. You want people to condemn the atrocities of Hamas. I'm happy to do so. Palestinians want people to condemn the violent actions of Israel. I'm happy to do so. Are you?

 

[scaramanga]

The Ottomans didn’t give it to anyone, it was taken from them.

the second paragraph is spot on though.

The Ottomans didn't give it to anyone they lost it in WWI.

The LoN gave it to Britain.

 

[scaramanga]

Here you go, the actual guidelines which explain everything nicely so I don’t keep having to engage in your nonsense.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/pdfs/reporting-terrorism.pdf

They’re guidelines. Not laws. The choice is always there. Like you have a choice to fill out a complaint form or not as you care so deeply about this subject.

That's the document I quoted above.

So as you've stated, BBC staff are allowed to use more accurate language but are choosing not to.

More examples, not quotes, not attributions:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66265865.amp
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-66167010.amp

In case you still don't understand, here's an explanation from someone else (people who interpret rules and guidelines for a living):
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/11/bbc-not-calling-hamas-terrorists-ofcom-top-lawyers/

 

[SpurMeUp]

Who thinks Scara and AuroR should get a room or a pint?

 

[braineclipse]

It seems like you don't believe Isreal should exist. More or less the same as Hamas. Do you apply your logic to other nations that have been formed out of war, or it is reserved for Isreal? It does seem like you have a deep seated hatred of Isreal. You only focus on one side - trying to paint a picture of how evil Isreal is. Are you able to understand the other side? The reason there is such ingrained conflict without the prospect of peace is simply because there are too many people with polarised views on both sides. Such people are not able to see things from the other side, and difuse, build bridges and create peace.

Rather than criticise, what is it that should be done now? Do you think Isrealis should leave Isreal? Give up the nation they were given by your nation, that they have built up? Where are you going with your vitriol, what outcome are you looking for?

In the same paragraph where you say too many people are too polarised you accuse Craig of not believing Israel should exist and having a deep seated hatred of Israel.

What has Craig said to warrant such accusations? I honestly want to understand if he said something that's actually inaccurate.

For the record I'm for a two state solution in some way or form. I don't think Israelis should leave Israel. But a two state solution probably includes some form of reckoning with where the borders should actually be.

 

[glasgowspur]

Who thinks Scara and AuroR should get a room or a pint?

There's definitely a need there for if not a full blown hug then at least a cuddle.

 

[braineclipse]

I'll save us both the bother and post the guidelines:
"We should use words which specifically describe the perpetrator such as 'bomber', 'attacker', 'gunman', 'kidnapper', 'insurgent' and 'militant'." (From an article on the BBC)

Now the definition of terrorism is:
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

Now if we apply the term terrorists to Hamas you can see that it would be both specific and accurate.

So the BBC can refer to Hamas as terrorists and still be within its own guidelines. Yet it chooses not to.

Have Israel ever used unlawful violence and intimidation against civilians in the pursuit of political aims?

 

[SpurMeUp]

In the same paragraph where you say too many people are too polarised you accuse Craig of not believing Israel should exist and having a deep seated hatred of Israel.

What has Craig said to warrant such accusations? I honestly want to understand if he said something that's actually inaccurate.

For the record I'm for a two state solution in some way or form. I don't think Israelis should leave Israel. But a two state solution probably includes some form of reckoning with where the borders should actually be.

For example: hundreds of thousands of Arabs were killed in the formation of Isreal (sic). And posting every wrong being on one side. And how Isreal 'get away with it'. It is clear Craig has questions over the legitimacy of Israel itself and sides with that perspective. So let's bottom it out. S/he can correct me. Among the left there is this anti narrative. Zionists are wrong, Isreal's conduct is wrong, Isreals history is wrong. And yes, there is no doubt that the history is far from squeaky clean. The formation of Isreal was a fight with tit-for-tat skirmishes and killings, which has never stopped really. We could go on, Isreal's conduct with Gaza etc But all this anti narrative doesn't add anything postive. It doesn't start from now. It doesn't have any suggestions about what should happen next. Or where people go from here. History is important to learn from, but where is the learning? It is simply a lament.

 

[dawaxman]

@dawaxman hi mate I would be interested in hearing your answer to these questions.

not to ‘win an argument’ but to understand your Stance better.

I personally disagree with the settlements but they don't, in any way whatsoever, justify any of the actions of the last few days

 

[dawaxman]

In your opinion can one condemn the violence from Hamas and also condemn actions Israel have made?

I really struggle to see how you get from people arguing against the atrocities of Israel to that being a support of the atrocities of Hamas.

I realise that you have skin in the game, that this is an emotional topic for you. I wish to be understanding and respectful of that. I probably don't always fully succeed at that, for that I apologise.

The Palestinians also have skin in the game. Could it be that there are perspectives on both sides regarding the understanding of the other side that get lost?

You ask for understanding of your side from people in general and people on this board. To learn more before speaking with certainty. I agree.

I realise I'm asking a lot, on a difficult and emotional topic. But I do think it's fair to ask you for the same understanding towards Palestinians as you're asking people to have for Israel. You want people to condemn the atrocities of Hamas. I'm happy to do so. Palestinians want people to condemn the violent actions of Israel. I'm happy to do so. Are you?

Depends which actions you're referring to....I don't condemn any of the actions of Israel over the last 5 days. I also don't condemn the actions over the last several years that have unfortunately led to civilians being killed because they were wholly unavoidable

There are some things that have been done that are shameful, but they pale into insignificance compared to the barbarism of these terrorists

By me acknowledging the negative actions of Israel, you're asking me to acknowledge that its in some way fair game what has happened this week, and I'm never going to do that

Finally, I go back to the skin in the game question - why do you care so much that I offer understanding to a people that you have no affinity to? I've said earlier on this topic that I'm very sad about the impact this war is having on the non-radicalised people living in gaza - what more do you need me to say? They are in this spot because Israel is fighting the world (including people like you who throw scorn on how they go about it) to defend the only piece of land they have. A piece of land given to them following the holocaust. Why are you so adamant that they should give some of it up? Do you hate that Jews have a safe haven? Do you think its fair that the only strip of land on this entire planet has been attacked from all around for the entirety of its existence over the last 75 years?

 

[dawaxman]

For example: hundreds of thousands of Arabs were killed in the formation of Isreal (sic). And posting every wrong being on one side. And how Isreal 'get away with it'. It is clear Craig has questions over the legitimacy of Israel itself and sides with that perspective. So let's bottom it out. S/he can correct me. Among the left there is this anti narrative. Zionists are wrong, Isreal's conduct is wrong, Isreals history is wrong. And yes, there is no doubt that the history is far from squeaky clean. The formation of Isreal was a fight with tit-for-tat skirmishes and killings, which has never stopped really. We could go on, Isreal's conduct with Gaza etc But all this anti narrative doesn't add anything postive. It doesn't start from now. It doesn't have any suggestions about what should happen next. Or where people go from here. History is important to learn from, but where is the learning? It is simply a lament.

Spot. On

 

[dawaxman]

Thought this was worth posting as it's from somebody in the footballing world:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712130828552056999

 

[dawaxman]

This post on LinkedIn resonated with me too and articulates what I've struggled to do in these messages I've been posting:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mich...rr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

(And nobody from my 900+ person company has reached out to me......)