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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

SpurMeUp said:
For example: hundreds of thousands of Arabs were killed in the formation of Isreal (sic). And posting every wrong being on one side. And how Isreal 'get away with it'. It is clear Craig has questions over the legitimacy of Israel itself and sides with that perspective. So let's bottom it out. S/he can correct me. Among the left there is this anti narrative. Zionists are wrong, Isreal's conduct is wrong, Isreals history is wrong. And yes, there is no doubt that the history is far from squeaky clean. The formation of Isreal was a fight with tit-for-tat skirmishes and killings, which has never stopped really. We could go on, Isreal's conduct with Gaza etc But all this anti narrative doesn't add anything postive. It doesn't start from now. It doesn't have any suggestions about what should happen next. Or where people go from here. History is important to learn from, but where is the learning? It is simply a lament.
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He did say evicted/killed, not that all were killed.

People on both sides of this talk and write mostly about the wrongs of the other side. Does that make one an anti semite? Anti the very existence of Israel?

I think there needs to be a compromise between the two sides. With both sides accepting what has so far been unacceptable. I think there needs to be a reckoning with the far from squeaky clean history of both sides.

Currently both sides are very happy to talk about the wrongdoings of the other side. Not so much to see what's been done wrong on their side. If I had any influence over this I would encourage both Israelis and Palestinians to take seriously how the actions of their side has hurt the other. And to try to understand the actions of the other side, not to justify it, but to understand and build towards something less polarised.

Real empathy. Real understanding. Even towards the people that have hurt the other. And from there try to find a compromise that neither side is happy with, but both sides can live with.

For both sides to acknowledge the shamefulness of their actions, acknowledge the pain and suffering that has caused. Acknowledge the guilt of that. That is the antidote to hate the way I see it.

The current state of affairs. Both sides justifying their own actions, condemning the other, retaliationa. We can all see where that ends, or rather it doesn't end. The suffering just continues, on both sides. And that unfortunately is how I see it going.
 
braineclipse said:
He did say evicted/killed, not that all were killed.
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That is exactly the point. It is designed to be unclear and suggests a much worse scenario. Everything is orientated to anti-Isreal. You shouldn't be so inaccurate when talking about hundreds of thousands of lives! A highly emotive topic, people in echo-chambers feed off such inaccuracies.

braineclipse said:
People on both sides of this talk and write mostly about the wrongs of the other side. Does that make one an anti semite? Anti the very existence of Israel?

I think there needs to be a compromise between the two sides. With both sides accepting what has so far been unacceptable. I think there needs to be a reckoning with the far from squeaky clean history of both sides.

Currently both sides are very happy to talk about the wrongdoings of the other side. Not so much to see what's been done wrong on their side. If I had any influence over this I would encourage both Israelis and Palestinians to take seriously how the actions of their side has hurt the other. And to try to understand the actions of the other side, not to justify it, but to understand and build towards something less polarised.

Real empathy. Real understanding. Even towards the people that have hurt the other. And from there try to find a compromise that neither side is happy with, but both sides can live with.

For both sides to acknowledge the shamefulness of their actions, acknowledge the pain and suffering that has caused. Acknowledge the guilt of that. That is the antidote to hate the way I see it.

The current state of affairs. Both sides justifying their own actions, condemning the other, retaliationa. We can all see where that ends, or rather it doesn't end. The suffering just continues, on both sides. And that unfortunately is how I see it going.
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There is a very large contingent in Isreal, ironically most of the people at the music festival, who are left-leaning who want a two-state solution, who don't want any oppression of others. There are also a large number of Palastinians who don't want kids and innocent people killed. This is why it is so vital people don't post inflammatory gonad*s about hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being killed in the formation of Isreal. Its not only factually wrong, it solidifies in-groups and creates higher barriers for those who seek to bring together the reasonable people in Gaza and the reasonable people in Isreal.
 
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dawaxman said:
Depends which actions you're referring to....I don't condemn any of the actions of Israel over the last 5 days. I also don't condemn the actions over the last several years that have unfortunately led to civilians being killed because they were wholly unavoidable

There are some things that have been done that are shameful, but they pale into insignificance compared to the barbarism of these terrorists

By me acknowledging the negative actions of Israel, you're asking me to acknowledge that its in some way fair game what has happened this week, and I'm never going to do that

Finally, I go back to the skin in the game question - why do you care so much that I offer understanding to a people that you have no affinity to? I've said earlier on this topic that I'm very sad about the impact this war is having on the non-radicalised people living in gaza - what more do you need me to say? They are in this spot because Israel is fighting the world (including people like you who throw scorn on how they go about it) to defend the only piece of land they have. A piece of land given to them following the holocaust. Why are you so adamant that they should give some of it up? Do you hate that Jews have a safe haven? Do you think its fair that the only strip of land on this entire planet has been attacked from all around for the entirety of its existence over the last 75 years?
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I'm not asking you to acknowledge that what has happened in the last days is fair game. I don’t think it's fair game. I'm asking for understanding. Just like you ask for understanding about Israel's place in the world.

I would encourage Palestinians to have more understanding for that. For you to have more understanding for their situation, their reactions. Not to justify it, not to say it's fair game.

What would Israelis do if the roles were reversed? Would some Israelis too be barbaric? Terrorists? Can the reactions be understood without justifying them? Just like you ask for "shameful" acts by Israel to be understood within a wider context.

If the people on both sides can't do that the suffering will just continue.

I care because I care about human well being and suffering. Particularly unnecessary human suffering is something I deeply care about. This conflict is seemingly an infinite source of unnecessary human suffering. I want it to be solved. I see no other solution than understanding and empathy. So in my flawed way that's what I try to encourage.

We're all just people. If the circumstances had been different enough it would be you or I who was the "barbaric terrorist", or the coloniser, or the rebel, or the oppressor, or the oppressed. We would all do shameful acts and justify it to ourselves.
 
scaramanga said:
That's the document I quoted above.

So as you've stated, BBC staff are allowed to use more accurate language but are choosing not to.

More examples, not quotes, not attributions:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66265865.amp
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-66167010.amp

In case you still don't understand, here's an explanation from someone else (people who interpret rules and guidelines for a living):
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/11/bbc-not-calling-hamas-terrorists-ofcom-top-lawyers/
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You quoted a portion from an article, not the document and the full context.

They can and do also choose not to call other terrorists, ‘terrorists’. That…..was the point. I’m not going to bother opening the two links, instead I’ll do you a solid and give them to you, because I feel like you really, really need this. Some more homework:

Please can you tell me how long the BBC has been in existence and how many hours of news it has broadcast?
Please can you tell me how long the BBC has been online? And in reference to that, average out how many articles have been posted in that time. How many of those have been posted about Hamas (a rough percentage will do)
Please can you tell me how many times across all its news articles and broadcast content, the word ‘terrorist’ has been used explicitly by the BBC in reference first to Hamas, and then in general, so you can ascertain whether there is a bias in place.

At the moment you have two examples above, let’s go back to you sourcing 998 more examples (a tiny number still I’m sure you’ll agree in context). I’m going to buy you a big folder which you can put all your research in and some colouring pencils to make some pretty graphs and pie charts. You can compile everything together into a big dossier and call it whatever you like. Then we can arrange a date for you to march triumphantly into Portland Place with your lovely big dossier (I’ll even arrange a crew to shoot it for you if you like?) and hand it in to a runner to deliver straight to their complaints department. I truly believe it will be a special moment for you, a triumph of justice over evil. You’ll be known as Gosport’s answer to Laurence Fox, both very similar characters.

Feel free to DM me with your findings so we don’t derail this thread further with your special investigation.

I don’t have a subscription to The Telegraph, it sounds like four people have complained and without knowing the context, I imagine if the BBC responded they would just refer to their guidelines. And we come full circle…


Edit: Couldn't help myself, looked at the two further examples because I knew they would be a reach;

1. 'Alfie Stevens, 24, of Surrey Quays, pleaded guilty to three charges of dissemination of a terrorist document during a hearing at the Old Bailey.
2. York Council's definition which BBC has shared

1000 it is then.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
That is exactly the point. It is designed to be unclear and suggests a much worse scenario. Everything is orientated to anti-Isreal. You shouldn't be so inaccurate when talking about hundreds of thousands of lives! A highly emotive topic, people in echo-chambers feed off such inaccuracies.
Click to expand...

I can't know his/her intentions in writing it like that. It didn't come off to me as a deliberate attempt at misinformation. I find it somewhat strange that you feel it warranted to conclude so strongly. Particularly whilst also calling for less polarisation.

I know this is an emotive topic. I will try to be sensitive and precise. Some of the actions of Israel warrant harsh criticism and condemnation though.

SpurMeUp said:
There is a very large contingent in Isreal, ironically most of the people at the music festival, who are left-leaning who want a two-state solution, who don't want any oppression of others. There are also a large number of Palastinians who don't want kids and innocent people killed. This is why it is so vital people don't post inflammatory gonad*s about hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being killed in the formation of Isreal. Its not only factually wrong, it solidifies in-groups and creates higher barriers for those who seek to bring together the reasonable people in Gaza and the reasonable people in Isreal.
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I'm aware of both groups. They unfortunately aren't large enough or powerful enough at this time.

I think aiming criticism at those who aren't in those groups, particularly those who also hold power is much more relevant.
 
braineclipse said:
I can't know his/her intentions in writing it like that. It didn't come off to me as a deliberate attempt at misinformation. I find it somewhat strange that you feel it warranted to conclude so strongly. Particularly whilst also calling for less polarisation.

I know this is an emotive topic. I will try to be sensitive and precise. Some of the actions of Israel warrant harsh criticism and condemnation though.



I'm aware of both groups. They unfortunately aren't large enough or powerful enough at this time.

I think aiming criticism at those who aren't in those groups, particularly those who also hold power is much more relevant.
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You wrote, "I honestly want to understand if he said something that's actually inaccurate". I didn't flag it up prior.

I think we underestimate the appetite for human kindness and decency. Which is why it is vital to move away from narratives about who did this and that, which perpetuates tit-for-tat and conflict. The groups of reasonable people are large enough. The dominant narratives and leadership on both sides need updating to harness them.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
You wrote, "I honestly want to understand if he said something that's actually inaccurate". I didn't flag it up prior.

I think we underestimate the appetite for human kindness and decency. Which is why it is vital to move away from narratives about who did this and that which perpetuates tit for tat and conflict. The groups of reasonable people are large enough. The dominant narratives and leadership on both sides need updating to harness them.
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It's not really inaccurate to say that hundreds of thousands were displaced/killed is it? I mean, it could leave one with the impression that more people were killed than is factual. But it's not inaccurate.

How do you think Israel as a state and Israeli society has dealt with this? Accurate? Nuanced? Factual?

People can't be expected to move away from narratives about who did what when the suffering has been so massive and is still ongoing imo. Which is why more narratives are need needed, including we did harm to them. Bit like post war Germany. Collective, societal guilt. A reckoning with that painful history.

I don't see how that group can be seen as large enough as long as an election leads to Netanyahu being in charge.
 
braineclipse said:
I'm not asking you to acknowledge that what has happened in the last days is fair game. I don’t think it's fair game. I'm asking for understanding. Just like you ask for understanding about Israel's place in the world.

I would encourage Palestinians to have more understanding for that. For you to have more understanding for their situation, their reactions. Not to justify it, not to say it's fair game.

What would Israelis do if the roles were reversed? Would some Israelis too be barbaric? Terrorists? Can the reactions be understood without justifying them? Just like you ask for "shameful" acts by Israel to be understood within a wider context.

If the people on both sides can't do that the suffering will just continue.

I care because I care about human well being and suffering. Particularly unnecessary human suffering is something I deeply care about. This conflict is seemingly an infinite source of unnecessary human suffering. I want it to be solved. I see no other solution than understanding and empathy. So in my flawed way that's what I try to encourage.

We're all just people. If the circumstances had been different enough it would be you or I who was the "barbaric terrorist", or the coloniser, or the rebel, or the oppressor, or the oppressed. We would all do shameful acts and justify it to ourselves.
Click to expand...

The non- radicalised Palestinians have done nothing wrong ultimately. But those people are the ones who have had totally free passage between Israel and gaza...

If you'd been to Israel, you'd see that the Jews live side by side with non- radicalised Muslims, Christians, Hindus, atheists, agnostics etc etc etc.

In gaza, the people living there have chosen hate. Hate against Jews

They have been radicalised and there is no way to show them that peace is possible. So what would you do with a few million people living on your doorstep who only want to eradicate you?

I keep posting that I have compassion for the innocent civilians being impacted but I keep being told to think of the poor Palestinians.

Stop responding to me with whataboutery and just acknowledge that the terrorist attacks on Israel are horrific and they must stop immediately, its as simple as that

But people don't do that... they say, yeah but what about the people in gaza.

The people in gaza are a mixture of hamas, radicalised Muslims who hate ALL Jews not just the Israeli government and some poor people caught in the cross fire through the fault of THEIR people......
 
braineclipse said:
I can't know his/her intentions in writing it like that. It didn't come off to me as a deliberate attempt at misinformation. I find it somewhat strange that you feel it warranted to conclude so strongly. Particularly whilst also calling for less polarisation.

I know this is an emotive topic. I will try to be sensitive and precise. Some of the actions of Israel warrant harsh criticism and condemnation though.



I'm aware of both groups. They unfortunately aren't large enough or powerful enough at this time.

I think aiming criticism at those who aren't in those groups, particularly those who also hold power is much more relevant.
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"Some of the actions of Israel warrant harsh criticism and condemnation though."

Post more about the actions of the terrorist organisation Hamas than constantly harking back to the above statement or you're making clear, by omission, where you stand on this debate
 
braineclipse said:
It's not really inaccurate to say that hundreds of thousands were displaced/killed is it? I mean, it could leave one with the impression that more people were killed than is factual. But it's not inaccurate.

How do you think Israel as a state and Israeli society has dealt with this? Accurate? Nuanced? Factual?

People can't be expected to move away from narratives about who did what when the suffering has been so massive and is still ongoing imo. Which is why more narratives are need needed, including we did harm to them. Bit like post war Germany. Collective, societal guilt. A reckoning with that painful history.

I don't see how that group can be seen as large enough as long as an election leads to Netanyahu being in charge.
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It intimates hundreds of thousands were killed, which they were not. Already covered - see above. Boring repeating it. I think you are wrong, most people want peace and don't want innocent people killed. You have to build from there - rather than you did wrong, no you did.
 
dawaxman said:
I personally disagree with the settlements but they don't, in any way whatsoever, justify any of the actions of the last few days
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I’m 100% with you on that. Nothing justifies that, and in none of my posts have I ever said that it did. I’m genuinely disgusted (not a strong enough word) with Hamas’ actions.
 
dawaxman said:
Depends which actions you're referring to....I don't condemn any of the actions of Israel over the last 5 days. I also don't condemn the actions over the last several years that have unfortunately led to civilians being killed because they were wholly unavoidable

There are some things that have been done that are shameful, but they pale into insignificance compared to the barbarism of these terrorists

By me acknowledging the negative actions of Israel, you're asking me to acknowledge that its in some way fair game what has happened this week, and I'm never going to do that

Finally, I go back to the skin in the game question - why do you care so much that I offer understanding to a people that you have no affinity to? I've said earlier on this topic that I'm very sad about the impact this war is having on the non-radicalised people living in gaza - what more do you need me to say? They are in this spot because Israel is fighting the world (including people like you who throw scorn on how they go about it) to defend the only piece of land they have. A piece of land given to them following the holocaust. Why are you so adamant that they should give some of it up? Do you hate that Jews have a safe haven? Do you think its fair that the only strip of land on this entire planet has been attacked from all around for the entirety of its existence over the last 75 years?
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I'm very sorry for you, your friends and relatives suffering but I can't agree that a war crime should be responded to with another war crime (just going by what the UN have said about collective responsibility).
 
braineclipse said:
It's not really inaccurate to say that hundreds of thousands were displaced/killed is it? I mean, it could leave one with the impression that more people were killed than is factual. But it's not inaccurate.

How do you think Israel as a state and Israeli society has dealt with this? Accurate? Nuanced? Factual?

People can't be expected to move away from narratives about who did what when the suffering has been so massive and is still ongoing imo. Which is why more narratives are need needed, including we did harm to them. Bit like post war Germany. Collective, societal guilt. A reckoning with that painful history.

I don't see how that group can be seen as large enough as long as an election leads to Netanyahu being in charge.
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When the narratives are flowing in from the west, especially with regards to the Middle East, what would be MOST helpful would be for the many millions of 'narrators' to stop and remember (or simply research/recognise) the modern roots of these horrors (I am not talking biblical times, just going back to post-WW1). There are facts which however uncomfortable to acknowledge, have sewn the seeds for what we see. The ongoing tragedy is how many innocent people die time after time.
 
T
thfcsteff said:
When the narratives are flowing in from the west, especially with regards to the Middle East, what would be MOST helpful would be for the many millions of 'narrators' to stop and remember (or simply research/recognise) the modern roots of these horrors (I am not talking biblical times, just going back to post-WW1). There are facts which however uncomfortable to acknowledge, have sewn the seeds for what we see. The ongoing tragedy is how many innocent people die time after time.
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The problem is the media are not interested in how this started post ww1. They just want to show the pain & suffering of innocent people knowing full well people will watch then take sides.
Sadly before this is over many more innocent people on both sides will die. Hezbollah said today that if ground troops enter Gaza Hezbollah will attack Israel from the north. I hope someone with a cool head is talking to both sides otherwise it's war & more innocent people will die.
 
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dawaxman said:
The non- radicalised Palestinians have done nothing wrong ultimately. But those people are the ones who have had totally free passage between Israel and gaza...

If you'd been to Israel, you'd see that the Jews live side by side with non- radicalised Muslims, Christians, Hindus, atheists, agnostics etc etc etc.

In gaza, the people living there have chosen hate. Hate against Jews

They have been radicalised and there is no way to show them that peace is possible. So what would you do with a few million people living on your doorstep who only want to eradicate you?

I keep posting that I have compassion for the innocent civilians being impacted but I keep being told to think of the poor Palestinians.

Stop responding to me with whataboutery and just acknowledge that the terrorist attacks on Israel are horrific and they must stop immediately, its as simple as that

But people don't do that... they say, yeah but what about the people in gaza.

The people in gaza are a mixture of hamas, radicalised Muslims who hate ALL Jews not just the Israeli government and some poor people caught in the cross fire through the fault of THEIR people......
Click to expand...

The terrorist attacks on Israel are horrific. I don't understand how you can need me to restate that. I can say "they must stop", that doesn't actually do anything. People have been saying that for ages, they haven't stopped.

Me and others bringing up the actions of Israel is whataboutery... Poor people on the Palestinian side is in this situation because of "THEIR people".

I could have this conversation with a Palestinian and it would be identical apart from the sides being switched. Therein lies part of the issue imo.

I don't know what I personally would do. I think I know what a sufficiently large group of people would do, including "my people". Use force, violence, try to control and subjugate. Limit movement. Dehumanise. Force the other side to live in terrible conditions.

I like to think that I would stand up to that in some way. Like many Israelis are. That I would be willing to see the wrongdoings on my side and use that to try to better my understanding of the other side. Like many Israelis do. I don't know if I actually would though.
 
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