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Set Pieces

Deja vu today or what?

Nothing to do with the delivery, it is all about positioning and movement in the box. We simply don't do it well.

After two years you'd think it would improve.
 
It has got to the point where one of our corners yields zero expectation from fans. Everyone just thinks, ah well, give it to the keeper and we'll try again later.

Strange, it really isn't rocket science to score from corners, put it in the right zone and either go for goal or flick it on. Bale was one of our best at attacking balls in the box, front post runs and flick ons.

Also Caulker and Kaboul. Actually that may explain things a little :D
 
Bullet said:
It has got to the point where one of our corners yields zero expectation from fans. Everyone just thinks, ah well, give it to the keeper and we'll try again later.

Strange, it really isn't rocket science to score from corners, put it in the right zone and either go for goal or flick it on. Bale was one of our best at attacking balls in the box, front post runs and flick ons.

Also Caulker and Kaboul. Actually that may explain things a little :D
Click to expand...

Good point. Although we have quite a lot of players that are tall or tall-ish, that can be a threat in the air and should be able to handle tall players defensively we have very few players that are capable of outright beating other tall and strong players in the air in a duel. Players like Vidic, Hangeland, Turner etc can actually outright beat other centre halves one on one. Very few of our players can do that. Kaboul can, but obviously he hasn't been available much.
 
It's not always about height and presence. Look at Tim Cahill for example, he wasn't the tallest but I've never seen a player show as much desire to win every header like he did.
 
I'd love to see what a team of 11 keepers would do when attacking a corner.

Maybe spurs could have a special trainng session and copy the moves man for man.
 
An interesting read... Hopefully AVB and the coaching team can devise a way of improving matters this season... [-o<

http://www.statsbomb.com/2013/08/corners-goals-for-goals-conceded-from-corners-premier-league/
http://www.statsbomb.com/2013/08/corners-part-ii-shots-and-pdo/

...Man United have have had the 5th lowest total of corners in 2012/13 but they had by far the highest total goals from corners; 15 for and 6 against (Spurs 3 for and 7 against). Let us focus on United’s 15 goals for from corners. That is 17.4% of Man United’s total goal output and whatever your opinion on corners, that percentage of goals from corners was an invaluable contribution to the title win... If Man United were the good then Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Swansea, Arsenal and Tottenham were the bad conversion teams of 2012/13.

...United are the best team in the league at not only scoring goals from corners, but having each corner result in a shot. Every United corner had ~24% chance of creating a shot. The best goals team is also the best shots from corners team – schemes and delivery. It gets interesting at the bottom of the chart. Tottenham and Arsenal are the two clubs who recorded the worst percentage chance of a corner creating a shot, Arsenal with just an 11.5% chance of a shot for resulting from a corner (Tottenham 13%).

...Looking at Save/Prevention% or whatever the hell it is that I called it, Chelsea, Sunderland, Norwich and Arsenal are really good. Tottenham, on the other hand are just terrible. Like, something was seriously wrong with their defensive setup when defending corners and it needs fixing.

...Corners aren’t the most important facet of a football game. Hell, only ~3% of corners result in a goal. Only ~19% of corners result in a shot. We are talking about small percentages here. And yet some teams excel at corners, it is understood that chances and goals can be created with the right blend of attacking setup, and Man United proved this in 2012/13.

United scored ~17% of their PL goals from corner kicks. United also registered ~20% of their prime location shots from corners alone (that figure rises to ~26% if we include all dead ball situations) and clearly that is a big contribution to United’s offensive output from just the humble corner. Chelsea were another team who excelled at corners, but this time defending the opposition’s corners. They were able to restrict shots against whilst at the attacking end convert their shots from corners into goals at a frightening rate.

A quick word on Tottenham, who were dire at corners in 2012/13. A very basic expectancy has Tottenham at -5 goals from corners. If Tottenham had posted an average corner PDO, then you do wonder if those goals may have had an impact on their final league position? Small margins. They all add up, and corners – however unfashionable they may be – are part of that teams performance equation.
Click to expand...
 
Jurgen the German said:
It's not always about height and presence. Look at Tim Cahill for example, he wasn't the tallest but I've never seen a player show as much desire to win every header like he did.
Click to expand...

For his size probably one of the better players in the air in recent PL history? Not the best basis for comparison I would say.

Can we expect that development from any of our players? Has there been a manager, coach or team that has developed that ability in their (smaller) players consistently?
 
SteveAWOL said:
An interesting read... Hopefully AVB and the coaching team can devise a way of improving matters this season... [-o<

http://www.statsbomb.com/2013/08/corners-goals-for-goals-conceded-from-corners-premier-league/
http://www.statsbomb.com/2013/08/corners-part-ii-shots-and-pdo/
Click to expand...

That is truly abysmal.. Now we have it in black and white, no more of this 'but teams never score from corners!'. When we scored those 2 (?) corners against Swansea last year, they were our first goals from corners in 133 attempts. That is a success rate of well below 1% compared to the average of 3%. Pathetic. Let's not even start on defending them... we had 12 corners to Cardiff's 2. They had 1 disallowed goal from a corner, we never even threatened.
 
SteveAWOL said:
An interesting read... Hopefully AVB and the coaching team can devise a way of improving matters this season... [-o<

http://www.statsbomb.com/2013/08/corners-goals-for-goals-conceded-from-corners-premier-league/
http://www.statsbomb.com/2013/08/corners-part-ii-shots-and-pdo/
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. A great read, which underlines my point that we really need to work much harder on corners. There is no evidence of any coaching here. Our players just bob about like ducks around the penalty spot/6 yard area. Lets just copy what ManU do.

Just an average return from corners last season and we would almost certainly have secured CL.

More work needs to be done by the coaching staff on this aspect.
 
Pirate55 said:
Thanks for posting. A great read, which underlines my point that we really need to work much harder on corners. There is no evidence of any coaching here. Our players just bob about like ducks around the penalty spot/6 yard area. Lets just copy what ManU do.

Just an average return from corners last season and we would almost certainly have secured CL.

More work needs to be done by the coaching staff on this aspect.
Click to expand...
Actually I did see one vid of Spurs doing corner training. I can't remember when I saw it but I do remember it was total chaos. There were two goals set up facing each other about 30 yards apart, and both the defending and attacking teams where running from one to the other as the ball came it. It was pure madness to my eyes but I guess the coaches knew what they were doing :eek:.
 
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Strange that Man Utd do so well at corners, there is nothing special about them. Rio and Vidic are tall. Jones. Rooney is OK in the air. But they have lots of pee wees too.

The great post above talking about stats says that only 3% of corners go in, but you have to factor in freekicks too and suddenly you are looking at a fairly large difference that can s****e a good few wins per season.

Can someone email that to AVB somehow? People will say he knows this, but maybe he doesn't as sometimes we have had nobody on the post when defending corners which is frankly laughable.
 
braineclipse said:
For his size probably one of the better players in the air in recent PL history? Not the best basis for comparison I would say.

Can we expect that development from any of our players? Has there been a manager, coach or team that has developed that ability in their (smaller) players consistently?
Click to expand...

It is simply not true to say players can't improve from corners. Several comparative little ones have decent records from dead balls, ( eg Evra, Sagna, Cahill). Besides, we have a lot of big units who are not exactly shabby in the air (Kaboom. Dawson, Verts, Walker, Dembele, Sandro, Capoue,). If these can be shown how and where to time run (and practice it!) there is no reason why we shouldn't score more from corners.
 
Rorschach said:
Actually I did see one vid of Spurs doing corner training. I can't remember when I saw it but I do remember it was total chaos. There were two goals set up facing each other about 30 yards apart, and both the defending and attacking teams where running from one to the other as the ball came it. I was pure madness to my eyes I guess the coaches knew what they were doing :eek:.
Click to expand...

As the results show, patently they do NOT !
 
Pirate55 said:
Thanks for posting. A great read, which underlines my point that we really need to work much harder on corners. There is no evidence of any coaching here. Our players just bob about like ducks around the penalty spot/6 yard area. Lets just copy what ManU do.

Just an average return from corners last season and we would almost certainly have secured CL.

More work needs to be done by the coaching staff on this aspect.
Click to expand...

To your eye...suggesting that this squad has no 'coaching' on corners is actually laughable. Can I ask, do you think AVB is a bloke who -

a) does not recognize the details and
b) does not work to improve them?

The evidence suggests he most certainly does.
 
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