Set Pieces

[metalgear]

To your eye...suggesting that this squad has no 'coaching' on corners is actually laughable. Can I ask, do you think AVB is a bloke who -

a) does not recognize the details and
b) does not work to improve them?

The evidence suggests he most certainly does.

then AVB has failed because we rank amongst the worst amongst the EPL teams.

 

[SteveAWOL]

That is truly abysmal.. Now we have it in black and white, no more of this 'but teams never score from corners!'. When we scored those 2 (?) corners against Swansea last year, they were our first goals from corners in 133 attempts. That is a success rate of well below 1% compared to the average of 3%. Pathetic. Let's not even start on defending them... we had 12 corners to Cardiff's 2. They had 1 disallowed goal from a corner, we never even threatened.

At least we are not conceding goals from corners almost every game like during that appalling run back in April when we conceded against Everton, Wigan and Basel (twice) which prompted a Chelsea fan to write this article in the run up to our visit to Stamford Bridge: EXPOSING THE TOTTENHAM WEAKNESS - CORNERS - CHELSEADAFT. Needless to say we conceded a goal from a corner in that game too #-o

It is simply not true to say players can't improve from corners. Several comparative little ones have decent records from dead balls, ( eg Evra, Sagna, Cahill). Besides, we have a lot of big units who are not exactly shabby in the air (Kaboom. Dawson, Verts, Walker, Dembele, Sandro, Capoue,). If these can be shown how and where to time run (and practice it!) there is no reason why we shouldn't score more from corners.

Evra headed in as many goals from corners last autumn as our entire team did over the course of the season Hopefully one of our players can get that belief that they will score from corners too...

Patrice Evra's belief in front of goal is paying off - ESPN FC

Patrice Evra said it is no coincidence that he had suddenly started scoring, almost seven years into his Manchester United career.

The left-back only scored three goals in his first 297 games for United before getting three in the last 13. Each of the goals in that recent run have been headers from corners, with the diminutive defender showing his aerial ability against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Arsenal and then Swansea in Sunday's 1-1 draw.

Evra told MUTV: "It's not an accident. I've started to believe that I can score. That's why whenever we get a corner kick I try to put myself in the right place. It's always a good delivery too - Wayne [Rooney] has set up two of my goals, and [on Sunday] it was Robin van Persie."

 

[braineclipse]

It is simply not true to say players can't improve from corners. Several comparative little ones have decent records from dead balls, ( eg Evra, Sagna, Cahill). Besides, we have a lot of big units who are not exactly shabby in the air (Kaboom. Dawson, Verts, Walker, Dembele, Sandro, Capoue,). If these can be shown how and where to time run (and practice it!) there is no reason why we shouldn't score more from corners.

Did I say that players can't improve from corners? Please re-read my post, and the post I quoted and if you still think that's what I said then let me know and I'll find a way to re-word my post.

We have a lot of bit units? That was part of what I was talking about in my post previous to the one you quoted. Listing Kaboul is a bit silly, how many games has he been available for AVB in the league so far? Same with Capoue. Walker is a big unit? Alright then. What's your definition for "big unit"?

then AVB has failed because we rank amongst the worst amongst the EPL teams.

Failed or prioritized other areas? There's limited time available on the training ground and a lot of different areas coaches/managers can focus on.

No doubt there's room for improvement from set pieces, but perhaps AVB prioritized other areas higher where the room for improvement was judged to be more significant?

 

[braineclipse]

Actually I did see one vid of Spurs doing corner training. I can't remember when I saw it but I do remember it was total chaos. There were two goals set up facing each other about 30 yards apart, and both the defending and attacking teams where running from one to the other as the ball came it. It was pure madness to my eyes but I guess the coaches knew what they were doing .

Interesting, thanks for posting.

Might seem like madness, but it does make a bit of sense I think. Often players aren't faced with exactly what's prepared pre-match in game situations. Subs have been made, players might be out on the touchline receiving treatment, different opponents might be taking the set pieces etc. And often there's not a lot of time available to get organized. An exercise like the one you mention could help some of our defenders practice just that organization that is needed as a set piece is being prepared by the opposition.

Often games get a bit chaotic, especially if we're being put under pressure. Replicating that chaos on the training ground could be a very good idea. Although, if I interpret what you're describing correctly it might be more of a defensive exercise.

 

[Pirate55]

For his size probably one of the better players in the air in recent PL history? Not the best basis for comparison I would say.

Can we expect that development from any of our players? Has there been a manager, coach or team that has developed that ability in their (smaller) players consistently?

What do you mean by this if not that none of our players can be coached to improve at corners?

It would be a complete abrogation of any coach worth his salt if they took this defeatist attitude!

 

[braineclipse]

What do you mean by this if not that none of our players can be coached to improve at corners?

It would be a complete abrogation of any coach worth his salt if they took this defeatist attitude!

That, in this case referring back to the previous sentence. That development, as in developing into "For his size probably one of the better players in the air in recent PL history". Also see the sentence following the one you highlighted. Or the context of the discussion.

This is not the same as saying that there can't be an improvement.

Your second paragraph is superfluous as it addresses an opinion I have already told you I don't hold.

 

[Pirate55]

Did I say that players can't improve from corners? Please re-read my post, and the post I quoted and if you still think that's what I said then let me know and I'll find a way to re-word my post.

We have a lot of bit units? That was part of what I was talking about in my post previous to the one you quoted. Listing Kaboul is a bit silly, how many games has he been available for AVB in the league so far? Same with Capoue. Walker is a big unit? Alright then.What's your definition for "big unit"?



Failed or prioritized other areas? There's limited time available on the training ground and a lot of different areas coaches/managers can focus on.

No doubt there's room for improvement from set pieces, but perhaps AVB prioritized other areas higher where the room for improvement was judged to be more significant?

Do I really need to define what a big unit is? If it helps, lets say anyone over 6 foot. Statto, can you please give the respective heights of the players mentioned.

The point is, we have the aerial ability in abundance. Yet our corners seem dismally impotent. What do you think is the reason for this?

To say that we have prioritised other areas and there is only limited time on the coaching ground is simply nonsense.

 

[braineclipse]

Do I really need to define what a big unit is? If it helps, lets say anyone over 6 foot. Statto, can you please give the respective heights of the players mentioned.

The point is, we have the aerial ability in abundance. Yet our corners seem dismally impotent. What do you think is the reason for this?

To say that we have prioritised other areas and there is only limited time on the coaching ground is simply nonsense.

According to Wikipedia Kyle Walker is 1.78 m (5 ft 10 in). I only asked because I felt he didn't fit the description of a big unit. So I asked for your definition. If that was so bad then fine, I'll abstain from asking you what you mean by the terms you use in the future...

As I have already pointed out on the previous page I'm not convinced that we have aerial ability in abundance. This is what I wrote: "Good point. Although we have quite a lot of players that are tall or tall-ish, that can be a threat in the air and should be able to handle tall players defensively we have very few players that are capable of outright beating other tall and strong players in the air in a duel. Players like Vidic, Hangeland, Turner etc can actually outright beat other centre halves one on one. Very few of our players can do that. Kaboul can, but obviously he hasn't been available much."

I have agreed that I think there's room for improvement, exactly what needs to be done I don't know. I think the better delivery from Eriksen will help and I think that better movement will help.

You must expand on why the idea that there's a limited amount of time on the training ground is nonsense as I can't accept that as a statement of fact without any rationale behind it.

 

[Pirate55]

To your eye...suggesting that this squad has no 'coaching' on corners is actually laughable. Can I ask, do you think AVB is a bloke who -

a) does not recognize the details and
b) does not work to improve them?

The evidence suggests he most certainly does.

You and I will have to disagree on this as I see no evidence of this at all. Look at the results to demonstrate this.

Please can you identify for me exactly where you see this evidence?

Regarding AVB, unlike you, I don't think he is totally infallible. He has made mistakes. I think even you will agree that not posting players on our posts when defending corners and flirting with zonal marking weren't the best decisions. Also to allow Townsend to go out on loan last Jan and BAE this season, left us short in key positions. His handling of Ade has also not got the best out of him.

So, to answer your question directly, no, I don't think AVB is always right, always recognises the details and always makes the correct decision. While he has done very well last season, and so far this season, there is still room for improvement. Corners are one area where this is demonstrably true.

 

[Pirate55]

According to Wikipedia Kyle Walker is 1.78 m (5 ft 10 in). I only asked because I felt he didn't fit the description of a big unit. So I asked for your definition. If that was so bad then fine, I'll abstain from asking you what you mean by the terms you use in the future...

As I have already pointed out on the previous page I'm not convinced that we have aerial ability in abundance. This is what I wrote: "Good point. Although we have quite a lot of players that are tall or tall-ish, that can be a threat in the air and should be able to handle tall players defensively we have very few players that are capable of outright beating other tall and strong players in the air in a duel. Players like Vidic, Hangeland, Turner etc can actually outright beat other centre halves one on one. Very few of our players can do that. Kaboul can, but obviously he hasn't been available much."

I have agreed that I think there's room for improvementexactly what needs to be done I don't know. I think the better delivery from Eriksen will help and I think that better movement will help

You must expand on why the idea that there's a limited amount of time on the training ground is nonsense as I can't accept that as a statement of fact without any rationale behind it.

Ok - you scored a point with Walker - but he isn't normally involved in corners anyway and it doesn't detract from my central point that we have a number of big players who are more than half decent in the air.

On the training ground, there is ample time to practice corners - both attacking and defending. Are you saying AVB is not doing this due to lack of available time?

I agree with you on the bolder bits.

 

[Rorschach]

Interesting, thanks for posting.

Might seem like madness, but it does make a bit of sense I think. Often players aren't faced with exactly what's prepared pre-match in game situations. Subs have been made, players might be out on the touchline receiving treatment, different opponents might be taking the set pieces etc. And often there's not a lot of time available to get organized. An exercise like the one you mention could help some of our defenders practice just that organization that is needed as a set piece is being prepared by the opposition.

Often games get a bit chaotic, especially if we're being put under pressure. Replicating that chaos on the training ground could be a very good idea. Although, if I interpret what you're describing correctly it might be more of a defensive exercise.

I'm not too sure what it was attempting to coach if I'm honest. If you saw it I think you would agree that it wasn't a match scenario in any way. Anyway who knows what they had in mind, but you'd have to think it was just one of many drills they do for set plays.

I do agree somewhat with Pirate in that we are well below the average in terms of returns from attacking corners. When you see the amount of goals Utd have scored it seems to me that we should be studying the tapes and discovering their secrets :-s

 

[braineclipse]

Ok - you scored a point with Walker - but he isn't normally involved in corners anyway and it doesn't detract from my central point that we have a number of big players who are more than half decent in the air.

On the training ground, there is ample time to practice corners - both attacking and defending. Are you saying AVB is not doing this due to lack of available time?

I agree with you on the bolder bits.

I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that a lot of the players that are a main threat from corners for other teams are not players that are "big and more than half decent in the air". It's the exceptional ones that pose a constant threat. We have a lot of players that are more than half decent in the air, but not a lot that are exceptional.

I'm not saying that AVB is not doing this. I'm of the opinion that we do work on set pieces on the training ground, but that it perhaps isn't an area we put a lot of focus on. And that time is an issue because there's a limited amount of it available.

The things you list to steff is a pretty clear indication that we do work on set pieces on the training ground. Or do you think AVB just told the lads before a game that "today we'll play zonal marking"? Seems quite obvious to me that testing that out would have followed a time of working on that on the training ground...

So you're just flat out stating that "there is ample time"? No rationale? No reasoning?

I remember listening to the football weekly podcast before the Norwich game where they pointed out that one of Norwich's spikes in form last season followed an international break. A time when clubs like Norwich have their players on the training ground with the time to work on various things, something clubs with loads of internationals don't have. Quite regularly I feel that we hear managers and players say that they focused on something on the training ground, surely that focus must mean a focus on one thing over another? Surely that must imply that there's not ample time to do everything.

 

[braineclipse]

You and I will have to disagree on this as I see no evidence of this at all. Look at the results to demonstrate this.

Please can you identify for me exactly where you see this evidence?

Regarding AVB, unlike you, I don't think he is totally infallible. He has made mistakes. I think even you will agree that not posting players on our posts when defending corners and flirting with zonal marking weren't the best decisions. Also to allow Townsend to go out on loan last Jan and BAE this season, left us short in key positions. His handling of Ade has also not got the best out of him.

So, to answer your question directly, no, I don't think AVB is always right, always recognises the details and always makes the correct decision. While he has done very well last season, and so far this season, there is still room for improvement. Corners are one area where this is demonstrably true.

Seriously mate... You should re-read posts you answer before making your mind up about what it is people are saying before jumping to conclusions about what people think.

Saying that AVB (1) recognizes details and (2) works to improve them is not the same as saying that AVB is infallible. Even if partnered with an assumption that our poor return from corners is a pretty basic observation that any club should be able to notice.

I can't for the life of me imagine that Steff thinks AVB is "totally infallible". You're left arguing straw man after straw man.

(Just well intentioned advice, if you feel it's out of place feel free to tell me to **** off)

 

[Pirate55]

I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that a lot of the players that are a main threat from corners for other teams are not players that are "big and more than half decent in the air". It's the exceptional ones that pose a constant threat. We have a lot of players that are more than half decent in the air, but not a lot that are exceptional.

I'm not saying that AVB is not doing this. I'm of the opinion that we do work on set pieces on the training ground, but that it perhaps isn't an area we put a lot of focus on. And that time is an issue because there's a limited amount of it available.

The things you list to steff is a pretty clear indication that we do work on set pieces on the training ground. Or do you think AVB just told the lads before a game that "today we'll play zonal marking"? Seems quite obvious to me that testing that out would have followed a time of working on that on the training ground...

So you're just flat out stating that "there is ample time"? No rationale? No reasoning?


I remember listening to the football weekly podcast before the Norwich game where they pointed out that one of Norwich's spikes in form last season followed an international break. A time when clubs like Norwich have their players on the training ground with the time to work on various things, something clubs with loads of internationals don't have. Quite regularly I feel that we hear managers and players say that they focused on something on the training ground, surely that focus must mean a focus on one thing over another? Surely that must imply that there's not ample time to do everything.

And by the same token, you are suggesting that there is a set time for training ground exercises. It is not a 9-5 job. If AvB really wanted to spend time on this aspect, then time would be found.

We may practice defending corners after our miserable record last season, but same question yo you as to Steff. Can you show me any evidence at all of where we work on anything from attacking corners?

As a previous poster stated, Evra scored more headers from corners in the autumn last year than we did in the whole season. Could it not perhaps be that Utd worked on using their centre halves as decoys and let him find the space? He is hardly a monster in the air!

 

[Pirate55]

Seriously mate... You should re-read posts you answer before making your mind up about what it is people are saying before jumping to conclusions about what people think.

Saying that AVB (1) recognizes details and (2) works to improve them is not the same as saying that AVB is infallible. Even if partnered with an assumption that our poor return from corners is a pretty basic observation that any club should be able to notice.

I can't for the life of me imagine that Steff thinks AVB is "totally infallible". You're left arguing straw man after straw man.

(Just well intentioned advice, if you feel it's out of place feel free to tell me to **** off)

**** off!

Seriously though, neither you nor Steff can say with any certainty that AVB notices all details and works hard to improve them. I have given several examples of him NOT doing this. Hardly, straw man!!

 

[braineclipse]

And by the same token, you are suggesting that there is a set time for training ground exercises. It is not a 9-5 job. If AvB really wanted to spend time on this aspect, then time would be found.

We may practice defending corners after our miserable record last season, but same question yo you as to Steff. Can you show me any evidence at all of where we work on anything from attacking corners?

As a previous poster stated, Evra scored more headers from corners in the autumn last year than we did in the whole season. Could it not perhaps be that Utd worked on using their centre halves as decoys and let him find the space? He is hardly a monster in the air!

Yes, if he really wanted to spend more time on this compared to other aspects then time would be found. But how about a theory that he's instead focused on things like defensive organization, attacking movement, pressing and integrating new players that has helped us to 12 points from 5 games despite not scoring from a single corner? My point is that corners are only one of many areas where improvement could be found. Training ground exercises aren't a zero sum game, but if he had spent an additional 2 hours per week on set pieces (picking a number out of my bum) then this would have been 2 hours less for other areas of focus.

I cannot show you any specific evidence for attacking corners at this point. Although I would like to point out at the same time that you have no specific evidence that we haven't worked on it.

Yes improvement is possible, but is an improvement from corners the most important at this time is a different (and probably unanswerable) question?

**** off!

Seriously though, neither you nor Steff can say with any certainty that AVB notices all details and works hard to improve them. I have given several examples of him NOT doing this. Hardly, straw man!!

We haven't said all details, have we?

Honestly, we have people at the club whose job is to analyze games, results, performances, statistics and so on. You don't think they've been able to identify this corner thing? Really? I just don't see how that would be likely, if even possible.

You have given examples where you think what he's done hasn't given the (to you) desired result. That doesn't mean that the problem wasn't identified or that attempts to sort it out weren't made.

(As an aside I disagree completely about Townsend. Had he been kept around as a squad player I think he would have remained at the same level he was before going out on loan, the loan really improved him and we now have a very useful squad player on our hands at least)

 

[Pirate55]

Yes, if he really wanted to spend more time on this compared to other aspects then time would be found. But how about a theory that he's instead focused on things like defensive organization, attacking movement, pressing and integrating new players that has helped us to 12 points from 5 games despite not scoring from a single corner? My point is that corners are only one of many areas where improvement could be found. Training ground exercises aren't a zero sum game, but if he had spent an additional 2 hours per week on set pieces (picking a number out of my bum) then this would have been 2 hours less for other areas of focus.

I cannot show you any specific evidence for attacking corners at this point. Although I would like to point out at the same time that you have no specific evidence that we haven't worked on it.

Yes improvement is possible, but is an improvement from corners the most important at this time is a different (and probably unanswerable) question?



We haven't said all details, have we?

Honestly, we have people at the club whose job is to analyze games, results, performances, statistics and so on. You don't think they've been able to identify this corner thing? Really? I just don't see how that would be likely, if even possible.

You have given examples where you think what he's done hasn't given the (to you) desired result. That doesn't mean that the problem wasn't identified or that attempts to sort it out weren't made.

(As an aside I disagree completely about Townsend. Had he been kept around as a squad player I think he would have remained at the same level he was before going out on loan, the loan really improved him and we now have a very useful squad player on our hands at least)

But it isn't a zero sum game. If AVB wanted to spend an EXTRA two hours on corners then what is stopping him?

I would suggest that you can't give any evidence that we work on attacking corners because there simply isn't any. On the other hand, I am evidencing the lack of work in this area by the lack of goals and by the evidence of my own eyes regarding where the players line up, their lack of movement and the lack of variation in the corners taken.

Re Townsend, we will never know. But when Lennon got injured and lost form, we had no direct replacement. A few of Townsends goals just might have made all the difference.

 

[braineclipse]

But it isn't a zero sum game. If AVB wanted to spend an EXTRA two hours on corners then what is stopping him?

I would suggest that you can't give any evidence that we work on attacking corners because there simply isn't any. On the other hand, I am evidencing the lack of work in this area by the lack of goals and by the evidence of my own eyes regarding where the players line up, their lack of movement and the lack of variation in the corners taken.

Re Townsend, we will never know. But when Lennon got injured and lost form, we had no direct replacement. A few of Townsends goals just might have made all the difference.

I think most modern managers will agree that at some point lengthening training sessions will have a seriously diminishing effect for various reasons.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The lack of goals doesn't mean that we haven't worked on it at all.

 

[thfcsteff]

then AVB has failed because we rank amongst the worst amongst the EPL teams.

Errrr...what?

 

[thfcsteff]

You and I will have to disagree on this as I see no evidence of this at all. Look at the results to demonstrate this.

Please can you identify for me exactly where you see this evidence?

Regarding AVB, unlike you, I don't think he is totally infallible. He has made mistakes. I think even you will agree that not posting players on our posts when defending corners and flirting with zonal marking weren't the best decisions. Also to allow Townsend to go out on loan last Jan and BAE this season, left us short in key positions. His handling of Ade has also not got the best out of him.

So, to answer your question directly, no, I don't think AVB is always right, always recognises the details and always makes the correct decision. While he has done very well last season, and so far this season, there is still room for improvement. Corners are one area where this is demonstrably true.

Who said ANYTHING about him being 'infallible'? Have I EVER said he was 'infallible'? Now, what I don't do is find areas to criticize him at the start of his second season, one where he has us joint top of the table with ONE GOAL CONCEDED and still finding our best side. I think it's ludicrous and churlish to suggest that he and his coaching staff do not work on specific things, seriously, listen to yourself! Allowing Townsend to go on loan last season helped him develop tremendously, and arguably gave him the fighting chance he has of being a player for the rest of the season. I was sad BAE went, and I'm sure he wanted Contrao...and your comment on Ade is madness! Who else could've got more out of him last season given his perceived mental state?

Of course there's room for improvement. I'd like a greater chance conversion myself, and I'd like to see more reliability at left back...but again, your assertion that the coaching staff don't work on aspects of the game that you have identified as 'in need of improvement' is frankly ludicrous mate. In my opinion. And sadly not a humble one.