BE - sorry to jump in just as you're wrapping up but I've not really had a chance to stop and think for long enough to write down my opinions on this properly.
As you know, I'm a big believer in the deep-lying playmaker too - we've been on the same side of that discussion a few times before. I'm also in agreement with Steff in that Sandro is a much better passer than most people give him credit for. I also think that people are somewhat dismissing the defensive abilities of both Alonso and Modric, and the contribution made by Illarramendi this season.
My problem with where we are now and where we want to be is that I don't think there are incremental steps between our midfield and Madrid's. I think that you can boss the opposition with possession or you can defend when they have the ball and wait your turn. I don't believe you can half-boss the midfield with possession.
That means (IMO) that a player like Sandro (not a player like Barry or Parker) is required all the way up until we can field a midfield like Modric/Alonso, and confidently replace them if they leave. In other words, only if we can guarantee that our midfield is much better than the opposition can we afford not to have Sandro. I think we're a long, long way from that yet.
No worries scara, I think it's an interesting discussion. And apparently I will answer it with another wall of text... I'll try to organize it slightly and cut to the chase.
First, why?
To me, and I think you agree, the point of having deep playmakers and more technical players in the team is more or less about finding a way to get away with it. Most good to great players will either have their strength when attacking or when defending and that's certainly true for most players we can attract and keep. Obviously having more technical players in your team is good for your attacking play, so if you can get away with one more "attacking player" defensively that's a good thing. Part of this is how do you keep possession (when your opponents don't want you to have possession), but also how do you play through pressure and how do you break down stubborn defensive teams. We've effectively been quite poor at all those in my opinion with our "big 4" central/deep midfielders of Sandro, Dembele, Paulinho and Capoue. I could expand, but this post is long enough. If you disagree we can discuss it further.
The question about the need for a "defensive midfielder"
Real Madrid obviously manages to get away with their attacking players. Of course both Alonso and Modric are very good defensively, but neither can be described as a defensive midfielder to me at least. But you're right, we can't attract and keep players at that level that are so good both when attacking and defending.
They key for a team where we are to get away with it is first of all to have a team that works hard as a unit where everyone contributes, then I think you can shift towards more attacking technical players and perhaps, quite often, get away with not playing a "defensive midfielder". But I agree that along the way most of the time we'll benefit greatly from having a player like Sandro.
Again I think we've previously agreed on Bielsa as a very exciting (if risky) prospect. As I've said before I think if we had gone for him we would have seen Sandro as a centre back sooner or later in a system that probably wouldn't have a defensive midfielder role in it. Another example, take Swansea. At first they had Leon Britton and Joe Allen deep in their midfield, Leon Britten probably the deeper midfielder of the two. Both are hard working and good defensively, but both clearly has their strength on the ball, the ability to pass and move quickly, effectively. Another example would be this Arsenal side without Flamini, or last season's Arsenal side. Finally Liverpool under Rodgers with Gerrard anchoring deserves a mention.
Swansea, Arsenal (without or before Flamini), recent Liverpool and in my opinion at least some Bielsa teams have all made it work without midfielders that are better when defending than on the ball. And none of them have had players at the level of Modric and Alonso. What's more, if you look at Swansea they've been able to bring in players that fit that system without spending tons of money. They have a different approach, one where the orthodoxy of "must have a defensive midfielder" isn't heeded. Of course they're not packing their midfield with players like Christian Eriksen and Rafa van der Vaart alone, but players like Arteta, Allen, Britton, Canas and the Bilbao lads have all been players that are very good on the ball. That's their primary strength and they have teams where there are no passengers when attacking (or defending).
I think at the very least it's an approach that's worth considering. It wouldn't have been right for us this season, of course, I agree that if we want to head in that direction we'll have some distance to go and wouldn't for a second advocate selling Sandro or saying that he shouldn't be played regularly. I also don't think it's a direction AVB wanted us to head in.
Sandro's ability on the ball
I accept that I rate Sandro lower than you and Steff in terms of passing.
Just to try to quantify things a bit though, who would you compare Sandro to in terms of technical/passing ability? I'm assuming you agree that he's a player that's better when defending than when attacking. No need to compare him to Modric or Alonso, or Joe Allen or Ander Herrera. But who do you think he can be realistically compared to, who do you think are clearly worse than him on the ball and who do you think are better on the ball that play a similar role?
Alternatively, if you look at defensive midfielders at the top clubs around, how do you think Sandro compares purely in terms of technical/passing ability?
Just to clarify, because this was a question that I tried to ask Steff earlier and it's part of where we lost track. I'm not talking about whose the better player overall, I'm not saying that Joe Allen is a better player than Sandro. I'm talking about only the specific qualities of passing, along with related qualities like movement, vision, first touch etc.
