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Ryan Mason

spurspinter1 said:
When we got fourth under him it was apparently a lucky run of ten results towards the end (because we couldn't possibly consider that the league table is populated by the results from the full season where he salvaged the relegation form of Nuno). He just let Kane and Son be brilliant and everything else was total luck.

Now this season, Conte's gone when we were in contention for 4th and the team have picked up the habit of collapsing, conceding 5 in 20 minutes, 3 in 15 minutes in the space off what, four games and dropping down the league, that's Conte's fault as well. Things are great now Conte's gone, there's such a good vibe that comes with slipping down the league table with no vision for the club. At least we don't have Moura coming on as a sub anymore like Conte always did (apart from the last two times where he's wrecked two results).

If it starts raining or I step in dogbrick, it's great to now know that I can blame Conte :D
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Sorry if I have misunderstood but are you suggesting that things were going well under Conte this season and it's only gone to pot since he left? Because that's clearly not the case.

I think it is fair to give Conte credit where it is due, i.e finishing in 4th place last season. But equally he deserves a criticism for our anaemic performances in the domestic cup competitions, bowing out meekly in the CL and in the league our poor performances against any of our rivals. The latter being a reason that imho we would not have finished 4th as we have had to play against those rivals 3 times in a row. But he left before those games so in a way it allows him to be portrayed as a martyr.
 
harr1984 said:
And don't forget half the players in the team are playing so much better now Conte has gone - yet we are slipping further down the league table and won once in six games since he's left.Go figure.....
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In fairness, removing Stellini from the equation, Mason has had to play 2 games against rivals for the top 4 or European positions. There are definitely improvements on Conte. Had we not lost in the last seconds yesterday that would have been 2 points more than the corresponding home fixtures. We'll see over the next few games whether Mason is doing better.
 
Robspur12 said:
In fairness, removing Stellini from the equation, Mason has had to play 2 games against rivals for the top 4 or European positions. There are definitely improvements on Conte. Had we not lost in the last seconds yesterday that would have been 2 points more than the corresponding home fixtures. We'll see over the next few games whether Mason is doing better.
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In my opinion, the actual football has got better but the defending has got even worse.

And I think that supports Conte and why he was playing Royal, a more defensive minded wing back and why he asked for patience. We don't have good enough defenders to be open and took time to coach Royal to improve offensively in the wingback position, and would also take time to acquire the right defenders etc so he could get the team to play as he wanted. We look so flakey at the back without protection, granted we were conceding under Conte but it's got ridiculous since.

The problem is that some on here are blaming Conte for just about everything, I've been on about five different threads to see the same poster call out Conte and blame him for just about everything - it's nonsense.

Like you say he's fair game for criticism, but it is way OTT and is noticeable how whether if it's a player or manager if he is a fan favourite all the excuses are made under the sun for said person, but if he isn't he will get the blame left, right and centre. It's pretty cringeworthy at times to be honest.....
 
harr1984 said:
And I think that supports Conte and why he was playing Royal, a more defensive minded wing back and why he asked for patience. We don't have good enough defenders to be open and took time to coach Royal to improve offensively in the wingback position, and would also take time to acquire the right defenders etc so he could get the team to play as he wanted. We look so flakey at the back without protection, granted we were conceding under Conte but it's got ridiculous since.
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That is a really good point re Royal.

I think the "better" defensive shape under Conte was balanced out though by Son being largely negated and that he hardly played either Richarlison or Danjuma. Luckily for him Kane did not suffer an injury or we would have been fudged in the PL too. With Royal, I think, if he wasn't injured he would be playing now as Porro looks suspect defensively. For me though, Something was badly wrong with the team balance under Conte and rather than try to fix it. He threw everyone under the bus.
 
afsoc4life said:
Ahh yes - it is Conte's fault that these players are not performing well - Where have I heard this before?
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Do you not think that managers play an important part on the training pitch wrt coaching the players/organising the coaching of the players (if they themselves aren't hands on with coaching)? Assuming you do then i don't see why you think it's such a strange point tbh

I watched the game yesterday and not for the first time over the last few years I was left wondering what the hell happens on the training pitch, we looked a total mess at times and the defense and central midfield looked like a bunch of randoms plucked out of nowhere and asked to play together for the first time - i don't think some of the play we have seen happens if there has been good coaching and the players are well drilled.
 
Robspur12 said:
Sorry if I have misunderstood but are you suggesting that things were going well under Conte this season and it's only gone to pot since he left? Because that's clearly not the case.

I think it is fair to give Conte credit where it is due, i.e finishing in 4th place last season. But equally he deserves a criticism for our anaemic performances in the domestic cup competitions, bowing out meekly in the CL and in the league our poor performances against any of our rivals. The latter being a reason that imho we would not have finished 4th as we have had to play against those rivals 3 times in a row. But he left before those games so in a way it allows him to be portrayed as a martyr.
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Things weren't going brilliantly but we were within contention. Like last time around. As Harr puts it, since he left it's been one win from 6 and add in some actually outrageous in game collapses, we are no longer in contention.

It's not a controversial opinion but a factual account of what has happened in the league. It's not a viewpoint that'll win any friends but it's easier to blame Conte (and going further back Jose) than it is to address what the apparently unacceptable rant was about - The general acceptance of failure around the club. It was never a match made in heaven with Conte, that's probably an easy one to agree on and also that we've had an awful record against top opposition.

Kane used the term "unacceptable" again in yesterday's performance, to describe the start against Liverpool. I'm pretty sure Conte would agree but somehow people have walked away from that game thinking about how brilliant Mason is and how well certain players are playing.

I'm sure I'm coming off as a broken record as (not trying to be arsy) I feel i've made my points clearly enough. If you weren't a massive Conte fan previously it wouldn't necessarily endear you to him when he ripped in to the players and our club but they have proved him right.
 
spurspinter1 said:
Things weren't going brilliantly but we were within contention. Like last time around. As Harr puts it, since he left it's been one win from 6 and add in some actually outrageous in game collapses, we are no longer in contention.
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I keep seeing this fallacy in your posts in this thread (and in a few select other posters' comments): that we were "in contention" for 4th place.

I don't know why people look at the table during the season and don't factor in the other important information in the table like GP (games played). Seeing us at 4th with 30 games played and seeing other teams 3-4 points below us with 27 games played surely must be of some consequence, no?

TWO THINGS:
Looking at the table early in the season and drawing conclusions. I can't say you're guilty of this one, but it's just a general logical fallacy where a lot of people looked at Man United near-bottom of the table after a few games and now, they're above us.

Looking at the table late in the season, but FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE GAMES IN HAND. A lot of posters here were seemingly smug about holding onto the 3rd or 4th spot in the table despite many other teams around us having at least 2 or 3 fewer matches played than us. Three games in hand is potentially 9 points.

My fear is that maybe the players also view things so simplistically and perhaps become slightly complacent when they're "content" with aiming for top-four. All of a sudden, we're not in CL contention anymore and now those players are "content" with 6th, 7th, 8th.

Anyway, my post is now moving into the mentality of the players of the club which is a bit off-topic so I'll save that for another post.
Right now, I simply want to address these strange fallacies that I keep seeing about the league table. It's akin to fans who say things like "well, if Kane weren't here, we wouldn't have all those goals he scored." According to this logic, Kane would not be replaced with another strike; we would just play with ten men.
 
papaspur said:
I keep seeing this fallacy in your posts in this thread (and in a few select other posters' comments): that we were "in contention" for 4th place.

I don't know why people look at the table during the season and don't factor in the other important information in the table like GP (games played). Seeing us at 4th with 30 games played and seeing other teams 3-4 points below us with 27 games played surely must be of some consequence, no?

TWO THINGS:
Looking at the table early in the season and drawing conclusions. I can't say you're guilty of this one, but it's just a general logical fallacy where a lot of people looked at Man United near-bottom of the table after a few games and now, they're above us.

Looking at the table late in the season, but FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE GAMES IN HAND. A lot of posters here were seemingly smug about holding onto the 3rd or 4th spot in the table despite many other teams around us having at least 2 or 3 fewer matches played than us. Three games in hand is potentially 9 points.

My fear is that maybe the players also view things so simplistically and perhaps become slightly complacent when they're "content" with aiming for top-four. All of a sudden, we're not in CL contention anymore and now those players are "content" with 6th, 7th, 8th.

Anyway, my post is now moving into the mentality of the players of the club which is a bit off-topic so I'll save that for another post.
Right now, I simply want to address these strange fallacies that I keep seeing about the league table. It's akin to fans who say things like "well, if Kane weren't here, we wouldn't have all those goals he scored." According to this logic, Kane would not be replaced with another strike; we would just play with ten men.
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IMG_2249.png

Here is the table when Conte left. After Contes last game we were very much in contention for 4th. Yes we were 4th having played more games, but were still in contention for it especially with still having to play Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Man U, Brighton etc. we were 7 points clear of Brighton who had 3 games in hand at that point. Now we are 2 points clear of Brighton who have 3 games in hand.....
 
papaspur said:
I keep seeing this fallacy in your posts in this thread (and in a few select other posters' comments): that we were "in contention" for 4th place.

I don't know why people look at the table during the season and don't factor in the other important information in the table like GP (games played). Seeing us at 4th with 30 games played and seeing other teams 3-4 points below us with 27 games played surely must be of some consequence, no?

TWO THINGS:
Looking at the table early in the season and drawing conclusions. I can't say you're guilty of this one, but it's just a general logical fallacy where a lot of people looked at Man United near-bottom of the table after a few games and now, they're above us.

Looking at the table late in the season, but FAILING TO ACKNOWLEDGE GAMES IN HAND. A lot of posters here were seemingly smug about holding onto the 3rd or 4th spot in the table despite many other teams around us having at least 2 or 3 fewer matches played than us. Three games in hand is potentially 9 points.

My fear is that maybe the players also view things so simplistically and perhaps become slightly complacent when they're "content" with aiming for top-four. All of a sudden, we're not in CL contention anymore and now those players are "content" with 6th, 7th, 8th.

Anyway, my post is now moving into the mentality of the players of the club which is a bit off-topic so I'll save that for another post.
Right now, I simply want to address these strange fallacies that I keep seeing about the league table. It's akin to fans who say things like "well, if Kane weren't here, we wouldn't have all those goals he scored." According to this logic, Kane would not be replaced with another strike; we would just play with ten men.
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I think "fallacy" is a strong label, but fair points, at the time there were opponents in and around with games in hand, that's undeniable (and you have gone on later to describe us as out of contention for the CL which is the claim you describe as a fallacy unless I've misunderstood as it would indicate we were in contention when Conte left..Unless I've misunderstood.)

In literal terms it's obviously down to whether it's mathematically position or not but it's more that before the last 6 results, we had a much stronger chance of finishing in the top four than we currently do, I personally think that's hard to despite but open to being convinced otherwise I guess.

Absolutely with you on the "where would we be without player A / B" cliche though, it's a total nonsense thing to say that suggests some hypothetical alternate universe where there's no allowance for what would happen differently.
 
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spurspinter1 said:
I think "fallacy" is a strong label, but fair points, at the time there were opponents in and around with games in hand, that's undeniable (and you have gone on later to describe us as out of contention for the CL which is the claim you describe as a fallacy unless I've misunderstood as it would indicate we were in contention when Conte left..Unless I've misunderstood.)

In literal terms it's obviously down to whether it's mathematically position or not but it's more that before the last 6 results, we had a much stronger chance of finishing in the top four than we currently do, I personally think that's hard to despite but open to being convinced otherwise I guess.

Absolutely with you on the "where would we be without player A / B" cliche though, it's a total nonsense thing to say that suggests some hypothetical alternate universe where there's no allowance for what would happen differently.
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You're right, I was being a bit harsh as I'm not meaning to imply that we were out of contention when Conte was sacked. Simply that the situation was deceiving, although I think we're not in contention anymore. I guess mathematically it's still not impossible, although last season did pack a bit of drama until the very last day. I'm not really good with predictions so I can't go out on a limb and make a fool of myself.
Perhaps that's just me overanalyzing and trying to construct worst-case scenarios in some vain attempt to make a prediction. Brighton are playing out of their minds right now so I didn't think it was too histrionic to claim they had the possibility to leapfrog us, and that's without Spurs playing a single match as other teams play catch-up.

Anyway, sorry my post was not very well-written. I meant to highlight general fallacies that we can all fall into and I feel like I see this one quite often (just as the other example I gave that we both agree about).
 
harr1984 said:
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Here is the table when Conte left. After Contes last game we were very much in contention for 4th. Yes we were 4th having played more games, but were still in contention for it especially with still having to play Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Man U, Brighton etc. we were 7 points clear of Brighton who had 3 games in hand at that point. Now we are 2 points clear of Brighton who have 3 games in hand.....
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Our points spread when Conte was in charge had us 4th/5th. It now has us 7th (and dropping). I sold our points when we got rid of Conte and replaced him with Stellini (lets face it Stellini wouldn't get the manager's job at a single other PL club and perhaps not even any in the Championship) and have made a very large profit. That is the only good thing to have happened in this last third of the season.
 
I mean it's a fact that results have been worse since Conte left. But it's also a fact that results had been a fair bit worse under Conte post-Christmas than pre-Christmas, so things were already in decline under him. Personally I don't think Conte or Mason were likely to get us top 4 this season (and certainly not Stellini!)

But for me, the players' attitudes and motivation look better under Mason than Stellini or (recent) Conte. And that's better than nothing. And it might lead to better results going forward - not really fair to judge Mason after two matches vs Utd and Liverpool.

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Here's points-per-game last season vs this season pre-Christmas vs this season post-Christmas under Conte vs and this season post-Conte:

21/22 under Conte: 2.0 (76 points across a season)
22/23 pre-Christmas: 1.9 (74 points across a season)
22/23 post-Christmas under Conte: 1.5 (59 points across a season)
22/23 post-Conte: 0.8 (32 points across a season).
 
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elltrev said:
I mean it's a fact that results have been worse since Conte left. But it's also a fact that results had been a fair bit worse under Conte post-Christmas than pre-Christmas, so things were already in decline under him. Personally I don't think Conte or Mason were likely to get us top 4 this season (and certainly not Stellini!)

But for me, the players' attitudes and motivation look better under Mason than Stellini or (recent) Conte. And that's better than nothing. And it might lead to better results going forward - not really fair to judge Mason after two matches vs Utd and Liverpool.

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Here's points-per-game last season, this season pre-Christmas, this season post-Christmas under Conte, and this season post-Conte:

21/22: 2.0 (76 points across a season)
22/23 pre-Christmas: 1.9 (74 points across a season)
22/23 post-Christmas under Conte: 1.5 (59 points across a season)
22/23 post-Conte: 0.8 (32 points across a season).
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Add to that, we all knew the results we were getting pre-World Cup were not indicative of our performances and it was likely to eventually catch up to us. Perhaps not in the way that happened at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but there’s only so many times you can have a first half like we did under Conte.
 
tommysvr said:
Add to that, we all knew the results we were getting pre-World Cup were not indicative of our performances and it was likely to eventually catch up to us. Perhaps not in the way that happened at Saudi Sportswashing Machine, but there’s only so many times you can have a first half like we did under Conte.
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I think, as I have said before, we have to look at the way the team was performing across all areas. We were getting results in the PL because luckily Kane has been on the pitch pretty much all season breaking scoring records again. But I fear results would have gone south far sooner if he had been out for any length of time, Son was a shadow of himself Richarlison and Danjuma were not getting game time. We have the best cover in forward areas for as long as I can remember and yet we would have have struggled without Kane. That to me said that Conte was not making the most effective use of his squad.

I am not saying Mason is the Messiah but he is already getting more out of Son than Conte has this season. Plus he is giving time to Richarlison and Danjuma.
 
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