Politics, politics, politics

[milo]

Simple really and its for the same reasons you keep banging on about it. You obviously think it was the wrong thing to do and have made no secret of your opinion, i believe it was the right thing to do and like you i am expressing my opinion.

I was referring to you mentioning leave voters being called racists. You bring it up frequently when it does not feature in any of the discussions on here. It feels like you use it as a safety blanket to avoid actually having to discuss the issue.

I make no secret that I think the country voted the wrong way but I am more interested in where we go from here than rerunning arguments from the referendum and I try to limit my posting on the subject to that.

 

[milo]

What i mean is what if another key country in the EU effectively votes for exiting the EU by electing a political party who are clearly wanting their country to leave the EU: what do you think would be the political ramifications for the EU if both the UK and France effectively voted to exit the EU?

I think that France electing a facist president would have huge ramifications for Europe and the world.

 

[AuroRaman]

What also fascinates me is that the people shouting "get over it" loudest often have the least ideas of where we go to from here.

I mean, this, in a nutshell.



Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Gutter Boy]

What i mean is what if another key country in the EU effectively votes for exiting the EU by electing a political party who are clearly wanting their country to leave the EU: what do you think would be the political ramifications for the EU if both the UK and France effectively voted to exit the EU?

It would just be like when England, Germany and other northern European countries went through their Reformations. Christendom/the EU crumbled, but everything carried on and progressed. Hopefully there will be a bit less witch burning this time though.

 

[the dza]

Good post, I think it should be repeatedly posted.

 

[scaramanga]

A) If I was paying painters and decorators I would ensure the work started, but the government aren't spending their money they're spending my money so they can tinkle it up the wall with impunity and be relaxed with an open time limit.
B) The type of organized abuse that has been carried on in institutions can only carry on with a blind eye being turn by people in authority.
C) The victims of this abuse are usually vulnerable kids from broken familes or lacking support from their relatives and come from lower income areas, which I may have wrongly assume you consider to be riff raff

A) Had the inquiry already reached its conclusion everyone would be saying it had been done on the cheap, it was just a whitewash, etc. When has any serious inquiry ever been quick?

B) Possibly, I think you're a little more certain than anyone can reasonably be without a lot more facts. Even so, the government of then is not the government of now and there's been no indication as to why we should expect them not to perform the inquiry properly.

C) I consider most people to be riff raff, they're not special in that regard.

 

[r-u-s-x]

A) Had the inquiry already reached its conclusion everyone would be saying it had been done on the cheap, it was just a whitewash, etc. When has any serious inquiry ever been quick?

B) Possibly, I think you're a little more certain than anyone can reasonably be without a lot more facts. Even so, the government of then is not the government of now and there's been no indication as to why we should expect them not to perform the inquiry properly.

C) I consider most people to be riff raff, they're not special in that regard.

Since it was announced in 2014 there have been 4 chairs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Inquiry_into_Child_Sexual_Abuse last one quit stating the Inquiry's "legacy of failure" and should start from scratch- no one expects it to be completed but this has been pretty crap and were it under a different regime not sure you would be so forgiving.

 

[SpurMeUp]

This shows that the UK have been sold a pup.

If staying in the single market is desirable, then a Norway model offers less sovereignty, no change in EU immigration (which remember is less than non-EU immigration!). What will happen to those who promised everything? These clowns who have less of a clue than some football fans on a forum!

The main nob, a private school tool who was born abroad and has a vision of Colonial Britain which many who came from the colonies have. He's written a book and made it his life's work to exit the EU. He is 100% naive. I almost like him in his innocence. Daniel Hannan is his name.

Boris. What can you say? Tweets months before saying he thought exit was a bad thing and would incur huge amounts of waste for government. Breadstick was obviously a 'project' for him. Like some Etonian debating ruse. He thought it would just put pressure on to renegotiate our EU membership, and line himself up for a shot at the top job.

Gove. Do you need to say anything? Power hungry baboon who listened to others, and hasn't got a brain capable of rationalising much himself. He simply followed Hannan, was sold a pup like everyone else. Now looks like even more of a tool than he did before, which is saying something.

Farage. Far more complex and interesting. Not a tool like the others. He believed in something - UK independence - but I don't think he ever filled in the gaps on what that would look like. What is UK independence in an interdependent global world? He's now the icon of 'screw the system' alternative government and plays too close to the line on xenophobia. Ironic as some of his grandparents were German and that he's married to a German. Not to mention that he's a former Conservative - representing the establishment - and a member of the EU parliament, collecting on average £2,000 a month more due to Brisket! So that's E80,000 for putting his feet up on the desk in Strasbourg and sneering at Johnny Foreigner. What a revolutionary! Che Guvara, Fidel Casto eat your heart out. The guy wants to be a revolutionary. Sadly there is no substance behind his anger. What a shame as he has something.

How will these pillocks be held to account for the massive amount of waste they have caused the UK people? If advertisers made promises like they did, they would been hauled up by advertising standard. What I find most upsetting is there is an appetite for something fresh. To shake up politics as we know it. Sadly all they could do was promise the impossible without any substance or meaningful change.

How will the UK remember these people do you think?

 

[scaramanga]

Since it was announced in 2014 there have been 4 chairs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Inquiry_into_Child_Sexual_Abuse last one quit stating the Inquiry's "legacy of failure" and should start from scratch- no one expects it to be completed but this has been pretty crap and were it under a different regime not sure you would be so forgiving.

I've got no love for the current government whatsoever. May was the reason I didn't vote Conservative for the first time in my life at the last election.

I do, however, have a lot of sympathy for anyone embarking on a large-scale inquiry when so much of what they're looking into is entirely unknown. For all his other faults, Donald Rumsfeld deserves a lot of credit for the term "unknown unknowns". Anyone who has worked in software development for entirely new technologies will tell you how many false starts even the best run projects often have. I've been on projects (well run ones) where a better solution has appeared 60%+ into the project. At that point you have to choose whether you start from scratch with a better solution (with all the extra delays and costs) or if you plough ahead and just get something working.

We have quite possibly the only person in the country who has any idea about this kind of inquiry in charge at the moment. Until those involved know what the inquiry will entail (and they can't until they've done a lot of investigating) then there will be a lot of what looks like stumbling around in the dark.

 

[r-u-s-x]

with four (so far) heads of the enquiry either I think the statement by K.D.D.D.D.Soc rings true "How can anyone have any confidence in an establishment that can not set up an enquiry into a crime that most normal people are sickened by"

So far the establishment has not managed to set up an effective enquiry or they are so incompetent at it that they may well have not. I understand that it is complex but I would hope the powers that be would be able to deal with complex situations.

 

[scaramanga]

with four (so far) heads of the enquiry either I think the statement by K.D.D.D.D.Soc rings true "How can anyone have any confidence in an establishment that can not set up an enquiry into a crime that most normal people are sickened by"

So far the establishment has not managed to set up an effective enquiry or they are so incompetent at it that they may well have not. I understand that it is complex but I would hope the powers that be would be able to deal with complex situations.

I haven't seen anything so far that leads me to believe they're making this any more difficult or complicated than it otherwise would be. There certainly hasn't been anything that makes me think they would be unable to organise negotiating trade deals.

 

[r-u-s-x]

fair enough - for me its definitely a contributing factor to a lot of other behavior and decisions that makes me think they couldn't organize a tinkleup...

 

[parklane1]

I was referring to you mentioning leave voters being called racists. You bring it up frequently when it does not feature in any of the discussions on here. It feels like you use it as a safety blanket to avoid actually having to discuss the issue.

.

I can not believe you sometimes, if you are REALLY saying that in this thread there are no posts suggesting that those who voted for Brexit were racist, rightwing, Facist etc then i despair. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though you may have missed these.


"when the result was confirmed I was shocked, the conclusion I've come to for how this has happened has a large dollop of facism in it, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that'

i was not the only one who thought this was over the top as someone else replied with this

If you SERIOUSLY think most of the anti-EU feeling is based on fascism then you're misguided even more than you portray..

Here are a couple more for you.

I am bitter, people have been manipulated into self harm and facilitating a right wing agenda

i've always wondered how things got so bad in Europe in the 1930's without a moment of realisation and a call to action to stop it, this is how

yep

we're fudgeed

this is an absolute disaster

a victory for the right based on lies and hatred

fudge you UK


But no more darkies innit


I am pretty sure they are more but for you to say these opinions did not feature in here is/was wrong.

 

[milo]

This is essential reading

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpre...-for-article-50-until-are-sure-what-it-means/

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is essential reading

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpre...-for-article-50-until-are-sure-what-it-means/

All the more reason to give the EU the full jog on

Drop our business rates to undercut them, then spend the two years negotiating with the US, China and the other 85% of the world. I don't think the EU is worth wasting the energy on. Let them join the back of our queue

 

[milo]

All the more reason to give the EU the full jog on

Drop our business rates to undercut them, then spend the two years negotiating with the US, China and the other 85% of the world. I don't think the EU is worth wasting the energy on. Let them join the back of our queue

Did you read it all the way through? Are there any points that you disagree with and have a specific counter argument for? Because your post read very much like you didn't like what he was saying and disengaged.

We couldn't drop our business rates too far under G20 rules and it would not be possible to conclude a trade deal that would suit us with any of those countries within two years, let alone more than one and even when we did it would be worth less than our current European trade.

It seems to me that the most ardent Brexit supporters are still scared of specifics and cannot make a coherent case for what they support.

I'd love to see some detailed analysis from Brexit supporters on the financial costs and benefits to the country of the various options from here. This seems to me to be the least that we should expect but still silence.

Put simply. If you think that this is going to be easy, you don't understand what we are about to undertake.

 

[milo]

I can not believe you sometimes, if you are REALLY saying that in this thread there are no posts suggesting that those who voted for Brexit were racist, rightwing, Facist etc then i despair. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though you may have missed these.


"when the result was confirmed I was shocked, the conclusion I've come to for how this has happened has a large dollop of facism in it, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that'

i was not the only one who thought this was over the top as someone else replied with this

If you SERIOUSLY think most of the anti-EU feeling is based on fascism then you're misguided even more than you portray..

Here are a couple more for you.

I am bitter, people have been manipulated into self harm and facilitating a right wing agenda

i've always wondered how things got so bad in Europe in the 1930's without a moment of realisation and a call to action to stop it, this is how

yep

we're fudgeed

this is an absolute disaster

a victory for the right based on lies and hatred

fudge you UK


But no more darkies innit


I am pretty sure they are more but for you to say these opinions did not feature in here is/was wrong.

I don't think that any of those posts accuse leave voters of being racists. The leave campaign did use racist language and lied about immigration. That does not mean that everyone who voted leave is a racist.

One way to reconcile the divide would be if
Brexit supporters condemned the racist tactics used by elements of the campaign and the spike in race hate crime since the referendum.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Did you read it all the way through? Are there any points that you disagree with and have a specific counter argument for? Because your post read very much like you didn't like what he was saying and disengaged.

We couldn't drop our business rates too far under G20 rules and it would not be possible to conclude a trade deal that would suit us with any of those countries within two years, let alone more than one and even when we did it would be worth less than our current European trade.

It seems to me that the most ardent Brexit supporters are still scared of specifics and cannot make a coherent case for what they support.

I'd love to see some detailed analysis from Brexit supporters on the financial costs and benefits to the country of the various options from here. This seems to me to be the least that we should expect but still silence.

Put simply. If you think that this is going to be easy, you don't understand what we are about to undertake.

I absolutely think there will be some short-term economic pain. We've been blindly putting too many eggs in one basket for too long. It will take a while to reorientate oursleves towards the globe again.

But I also think the European project is fundamentally flawed and doomed, and just like saving ourselves from the Eurozone, we'll avoid the worse pain to come by making a break now. The EU is economies too similar to each other (trade needs diversity) which are uncompetitive, stagnating and its drive for uniformity and doctrine pitches itself against innovation. Freeing ourselves from it will allow us to become dynamic and agile again. The South Korea of Europe.

For me though politics will always trump economics on this. I'd always take the red pill. A faraway, bureaucratic and corrupt entity has been violating popular sovereignty, and I'm completely confident that a final split from it will result in a more democratic and prosperous society.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

I absolutely think there will be some short-term economic pain. We've been blindly putting too many eggs in one basket for too long. It will take a while to reorientate oursleves towards the globe again.

But I also think the European project is fundamentally flawed and doomed, and just like saving ourselves from the Eurozone, we'll avoid the worse pain to come by making a break now. The EU is economies too similar to each other (trade needs diversity) which are uncompetitive, stagnating and its drive for uniformity and doctrine pitches itself against innovation. Freeing ourselves from it will allow us to become dynamic and agile again. The South Korea of Europe.

For me though politics will always trump economics on this. I'd always take the red pill. A faraway, bureaucratic and corrupt entity has been violating popular sovereignty, and I'm completely confident that a final split from it will result in a more democratic and prosperous society.

Surely economies of scale are a factor in trade, as is breaking down barriers of entry. Why are you so adamant that trade needs diversity? Not sure if it was you but there has been a narrative that we should get closer to our Anglo friends in the USA, Canada and Australia, we offer nothing that they don't do in house.

I don't think diversity is necessary for trade, other than national resources as globalisation increases we will all offer similar services anyhow. More consumers with a good standard of living (£££) seems to be the goal now.

 

[Baleforce]

I can not believe you sometimes, if you are REALLY saying that in this thread there are no posts suggesting that those who voted for Brexit were racist, rightwing, Facist etc then i despair. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though you may have missed these.


"when the result was confirmed I was shocked, the conclusion I've come to for how this has happened has a large dollop of facism in it, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that'

i was not the only one who thought this was over the top as someone else replied with this

If you SERIOUSLY think most of the anti-EU feeling is based on fascism then you're misguided even more than you portray..

Here are a couple more for you.

I am bitter, people have been manipulated into self harm and facilitating a right wing agenda

i've always wondered how things got so bad in Europe in the 1930's without a moment of realisation and a call to action to stop it, this is how

yep

we're fudgeed

this is an absolute disaster

a victory for the right based on lies and hatred

fudge you UK


But no more darkies innit


I am pretty sure they are more but for you to say these opinions did not feature in here is/was wrong.

I think some of those were me, for the record feel free to quote me fully next time.