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Politics, politics, politics

No one thought he would build it except himself, seriously read his quotes and see anything deeper than what he said, at that moment in time Trump thought Trump would build that wall.

You know he was never going to build the wall, I know that he was never going to build the wall, he knew that he was never going to build the wall, but his supporters...? He did say he was going to make the Mexicans pay for it, which implies that he meant a physical, not a figurative structure. Boy are those numbskulls going to tinkled off with him in four years time.
 
I love your post Dubai but I think you need to be careful not to be over analytical- perhaps an obsession of the so called "liberal classes." I say that in the spirit of debate not to attack you btw as I probably fit into the latter depending on your definition.

I must admit I do not fully understand the American election system but Trump did not secure the popular vote. So if it was a referendum type vote, Clinton would be in the White House. When you compare his popular vote share with previous Republicans he did not show a surge in Support compared to previous candidates and it was significantly less than Obama's in 2012 and George W Bush's vote share in 2004.

You must also factor in that Hilary was never a popular candidate even amongst many in her own Party. In fact many who had nailed their colours to the Bernie Sanders mast refused to back her when she won the nomination. She was seen as enriching herself since her husbands' presidency, she was accused of facilitating his infidelities, and endangering National security.

It is also the case that Americans don't tend to vote the same party in 3 terms in a row (not since the 1940s anyway).

Without doubt some of the issues surrounding globalisation and disenchantment with the establishment played a part but I think we can give too much credit to their importance.

I'm basing this analysis on the fact that Trump won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin - former rock-solid members of the 'blue wall', that had ensured Democratic candidates a clear (if not always victorious) path to the White House for nigh-on three decades. Although your points about two-term presidencies generating less support and Hillary being an unpopular candidate hold sway, my analysis was more predicated on the realization that Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, three states that had voted for Obama in both 2008 and 2012 (iirc), switched to Trump this time around, taking the notion of any 'blue wall' with them. The fact that Hillary won the popular vote amidst a lower turnout only signifies that the American electoral system is getting ever more skewed away from accurately representing the masses of people in California and the Atlantic coast who have been swelling Democratic ranks for the past half a century without affecting the electoral college tally (i.e, these states have growing populations out of proportion to the demographics in the rest of America without the electoral college votes to show for it). But it doesn't reflect a nation-wide consensus or united view on Hillary's pros and cons as a candidate - the most dramatic example of that was the fracturing of the blue wall.

These states are all Rust Belt states, where the truly tragic death of the American blue-collar dream took place over the long, bitter years of the last four decades. All have known poverty, deprivation and the loss of the American ideal of self-reliance and mutual prosperity. To them, America wasn't as Hillary portrayed it to be - it was not 'already great'. To those former union workers left unemployed and on the dole, waiting for death as their family and friends waste away due to addiction or failing health and their once proud and tight-knit towns slowly crumble away into the dusty plains...it was dead to them a long time ago.

Make no mistake, some unique trends came up this election. One of them was Trump winning white voters without a college education by a record 39-point margin, higher than Reagan when he beat Mondale in the 1984 wipeout. Another was an equally record-breaking margin of working-class white women going for Trump over Hillary by nearly 30 percentage points. And a third was rural voters coming out for Trump in huge numbers that comfortably beat out Romney's tally in 2012. I think all those trends colluded in these Rust Belt states, and together signified what elite urban America was too self-interested to witness back when it could yet have prevented a Trump presidency - that there is no longer a way to sell globalization, automation and wealth inequality (with all their attendant phenomena, like higher immigration and job losses) to the people who have seen everything taken away from them over the cold, bitter years when they screamed for help and America did nothing. The Republicans will almost definitely take all three things even higher while in office - like I said, the poor who voted this way likely voted against their own interests, and once again played into the hands of the wealthy, as is the case with nearly all populist endeavours. But to them, this wasn't a vote for the Republicans as much as it was a vote for the one man who seemed even remotely ready to listen to their pain, and to understand that America wasn't great...but also that it could be made great again.

Racism doesn't explain why the same people that voted for Trump voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. Sexism doesn't explain why white working-class women went for Trump in such record numbers. And shouting about it from the rooftops instead of addressing the overwhelmingly pressing issues of economic and political equality for *all*, not just the trendy minorities or genders that occupy news attention for that particular election cycle, seems to be something that my fellow liberals have yet to seriously recognize as a the overwhelming priority.

And, as Brexit and Trump have already proved, their delusions will only have to get more and more frantic in the months and years to come. Next year, France, Germany and the Netherlands go to the polls. Le Pen was already predicted to win the first round of voting prior to Trump - GHod knows how much higher she'll go in the polls now, especially if the Socialists continue to select leaders as deeply disliked as Hollande. AfD is hollering from the rooftops with this victory - no doubt they're going to go full gun next year, as they already have in various regional elections over the past two years. Wilders is gearing up for a major push in the Netherlands. All these countries could fall to nationalist, sometimes openly far-right populism in the next year, if my fellow urban liberal classes don't get their heads out of their asses.

Time's ticking, but I fear, with our own disunity and focus on the enduringly petty, we have already proved too unwilling to realise what's coming, and why it is coming in the manner that it is.
 
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I blame what Sam Harris and others are calling "the regressive left". Time and time again they've completely failed to listen to the actual voices of the people. The people wanted Sanders, but he wasn't good enough for the political elite - they wanted Clinton and they were willing to tell the rest of the left who they should want. Ignore the voices of the frustrated, disappearing and ever poorer working middle class and they will respond to someone who speaks to them.

And now the same people on the left claim that they don't understand why or how people can vote for Trump. At least they got this one right, they truly don't understand.

A quote from the tv-show The Newsroom: "If liberals are so fudging smart, how come they lose so goddamn always?" Come on Democrats, how did you go from post-Bush frustration with the republicans through hope, change and Obama to losing to Trump. If you think it's all sexism, racism and xenophobia you will probably make the same mistake again.
 
I'm basing this analysis on the fact that Trump won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin - former rock-solid members of the 'blue wall', that had ensured Democratic candidates a clear (if not always victorious) path to the White House for nigh-on three decades. Although your points about two-term presidencies generating less support and Hillary being an unpopular candidate hold sway, my analysis was more predicated on the realization that Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, three states that had voted for Obama in both 2008 and 2012 (iirc), switched to Trump this time around, taking the notion of any 'blue wall' with them. The fact that Hillary won the popular vote amidst a lower turnout only signifies that the American electoral system is getting ever more skewed away from accurately representing the masses of people in California and the Atlantic coast who have been swelling Democratic ranks for the past half a century without affecting the electoral college tally (i.e, these states have growing populations out of proportion to the demographics in the rest of America without the electoral college votes to show for it). But it doesn't reflect a nation-wide consensus or united view on Hillary's pros and cons as a candidate - the most dramatic example of that was the fracturing of the blue wall.

These states are all Rust Belt states, where the truly tragic death of the American blue-collar dream took place over the long, bitter years of the last four decades. All have known poverty, deprivation and the loss of the American ideal of self-reliance and mutual prosperity. To them, America wasn't as Hillary portrayed it to be - it was not 'already great'. To those former union workers left unemployed and on the dole, waiting for death as their family and friends waste away due to addiction or failing health and their once proud and tight-knit towns slowly crumble away into the dusty plains...it was dead to them a long time ago.

Make no mistake, some unique trends came up this election. One of them was Trump winning white voters without a college education by a record 39-point margin, higher than Reagan when he beat Mondale in the 1984 wipeout. Another was an equally record-breaking margin of working-class white women going for Trump over Hillary by nearly 30 percentage points. And a third was rural voters coming out for Trump in huge numbers that comfortably beat out Romney's tally in 2012. I think all those trends colluded in these Rust Belt states, and together signified what elite urban America was too self-interested to witness back when it could yet have prevented a Trump presidency - that there is no longer a way to sell globalization, automation and wealth inequality (with all their attendant phenomena, like higher immigration and job losses) to the people who have seen everything taken away from them over the cold, bitter years when they screamed for help and America did nothing. The Republicans will almost definitely take all three things even higher while in office - like I said, the poor who voted this way likely voted against their own interests, and once again played into the hands of the wealthy, as is the case with nearly all populist endeavours. But to them, this wasn't a vote for the Republicans as much as it was a vote for the one man who seemed even remotely ready to listen to their pain, and to understand that America wasn't great...but also that it could be made great again.

Racism doesn't explain why the same people that voted for Trump voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. Sexism doesn't explain why white working-class women went for Trump in such record numbers. And shouting about it from the rooftops instead of addressing the overwhelmingly pressing issues of economic and political equality for *all*, not just the trendy minorities or genders that occupy news attention for that particular election cycle, seems to be something that my fellow liberals have yet to seriously recognize as a the overwhelming priority.

And, as Brexit and Trump have already proved, their delusions will only have to get more and more frantic in the months and years to come. Next year, France, Germany and the Netherlands go to the polls. Le Pen was already predicted to win the first round of voting prior to Trump - GHod knows how much higher she'll go in the polls now, especially if the Socialists continue to select leaders as deeply disliked as Hollande. AfD is hollering from the rooftops with this victory - no doubt they're going to go full gun next year, as they already have in various regional elections over the past two years. Wilders is gearing up for a major push in the Netherlands. All these countries could fall to nationalist, sometimes openly far-right populism in the next year, if my fellow urban liberal classes don't get their heads out of their asses.

Time's ticking, but I fear, with our own disunity and focus on the enduringly petty, we have already proved too unwilling to realise what's coming, and why it is coming in the manner that it is.
Very enjoyable read again Dubai. For the sake of debate, how do the liberal classes get their "heads out of their arses?" While the right can reminisce about the great days of the past, getting back there may drag every one to the bottom? Globalization is not an easy force to reverse and should we be pandering to people's base instincts of intolerance and bigotry, as our government are currently doing, to get there? I really don't think there is a simple way to reverse this trend. It took a war last time we were in this position.
 
I guess i'm a liberal, i'm feeling kind of lost, not because "we lost" but because "the game" seems to have changed

it may well be the nutshell of the issue and people will point and laugh nelson style, but, the only logical conclusion I can come to isn't "liberals are wrong", it's that "liberals didn't do a good enough job of explaining to the conservatives why they were wrong"

to (also) steal from a Sorkin creation,

"Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things...every one! So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, 'Liberal,' as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work, Senator, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor."

there have been so many progressive steps over the last decade, LGBT rights, movement on gun control, healthcare, I hope the regression is minimal
 
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I think that the issue that liberals have is that a nuanced message does not cut across when increasing numbers of voters get their news through social media. Facebook particularly is very much designed feed you information tailored to fit your views.
 
I think that the issue that liberals have is that a nuanced message does not cut across when increasing numbers of voters get their news through social media. Facebook particularly is very much designed feed you information tailored to fit your views.

that's true, I made the mistake of following the process on TPM, 538, The Daily Show, Full Frontal, Last Week Tonight, etc

preaching to the converted, hence the surprise and perhaps why the Dem's didn't work hard enough to get out the vote
 
I'm basing this analysis on the fact that Trump won Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin - former rock-solid members of the 'blue wall', that had ensured Democratic candidates a clear (if not always victorious) path to the White House for nigh-on three decades. Although your points about two-term presidencies generating less support and Hillary being an unpopular candidate hold sway, my analysis was more predicated on the realization that Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, three states that had voted for Obama in both 2008 and 2012 (iirc), switched to Trump this time around, taking the notion of any 'blue wall' with them. The fact that Hillary won the popular vote amidst a lower turnout only signifies that the American electoral system is getting ever more skewed away from accurately representing the masses of people in California and the Atlantic coast who have been swelling Democratic ranks for the past half a century without affecting the electoral college tally (i.e, these states have growing populations out of proportion to the demographics in the rest of America without the electoral college votes to show for it). But it doesn't reflect a nation-wide consensus or united view on Hillary's pros and cons as a candidate - the most dramatic example of that was the fracturing of the blue wall.

These states are all Rust Belt states, where the truly tragic death of the American blue-collar dream took place over the long, bitter years of the last four decades. All have known poverty, deprivation and the loss of the American ideal of self-reliance and mutual prosperity. To them, America wasn't as Hillary portrayed it to be - it was not 'already great'. To those former union workers left unemployed and on the dole, waiting for death as their family and friends waste away due to addiction or failing health and their once proud and tight-knit towns slowly crumble away into the dusty plains...it was dead to them a long time ago.

Make no mistake, some unique trends came up this election. One of them was Trump winning white voters without a college education by a record 39-point margin, higher than Reagan when he beat Mondale in the 1984 wipeout. Another was an equally record-breaking margin of working-class white women going for Trump over Hillary by nearly 30 percentage points. And a third was rural voters coming out for Trump in huge numbers that comfortably beat out Romney's tally in 2012. I think all those trends colluded in these Rust Belt states, and together signified what elite urban America was too self-interested to witness back when it could yet have prevented a Trump presidency - that there is no longer a way to sell globalization, automation and wealth inequality (with all their attendant phenomena, like higher immigration and job losses) to the people who have seen everything taken away from them over the cold, bitter years when they screamed for help and America did nothing. The Republicans will almost definitely take all three things even higher while in office - like I said, the poor who voted this way likely voted against their own interests, and once again played into the hands of the wealthy, as is the case with nearly all populist endeavours. But to them, this wasn't a vote for the Republicans as much as it was a vote for the one man who seemed even remotely ready to listen to their pain, and to understand that America wasn't great...but also that it could be made great again.

Racism doesn't explain why the same people that voted for Trump voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. Sexism doesn't explain why white working-class women went for Trump in such record numbers. And shouting about it from the rooftops instead of addressing the overwhelmingly pressing issues of economic and political equality for *all*, not just the trendy minorities or genders that occupy news attention for that particular election cycle, seems to be something that my fellow liberals have yet to seriously recognize as a the overwhelming priority.

And, as Brexit and Trump have already proved, their delusions will only have to get more and more frantic in the months and years to come. Next year, France, Germany and the Netherlands go to the polls. Le Pen was already predicted to win the first round of voting prior to Trump - GHod knows how much higher she'll go in the polls now, especially if the Socialists continue to select leaders as deeply disliked as Hollande. AfD is hollering from the rooftops with this victory - no doubt they're going to go full gun next year, as they already have in various regional elections over the past two years. Wilders is gearing up for a major push in the Netherlands. All these countries could fall to nationalist, sometimes openly far-right populism in the next year, if my fellow urban liberal classes don't get their heads out of their asses.

Time's ticking, but I fear, with our own disunity and focus on the enduringly petty, we have already proved too unwilling to realise what's coming, and why it is coming in the manner that it is.

A very good post again mate, there are so many folks who can not see the woods for the trees and continue to argue and try to convince themselves its not really happening. Several years ago i had a lot of debates in the pubs and forums about why UKIP were winning a lot of seats in the local elections, it was obvious that there were people up and down the country were sick to death of what was happening in their communities.

Of course the usual reply i got from the heads in the sand folks was that ALL of those who had voted for UKIP were racists( they were not of course but it was the only explanation in their heads). I said at the time that unless the major partys in this country started looking outside their buisness friends and interests and take a look/listen to what the man in the street was saying they would be even more voting for change.

Of course they ignored ( like a lot of those who were shouting racist at every turn) that something was going to have to change and went on their merry way. Since then the feeling of helplessness of those ignored has grown and we now have Brexit and its spread to the States and was the reason Trump ( with not political experiance) managed to win his race. This feeling is now spreading across Europe and there will be more change over the next decade i have no doubt.
 
I think that the issue that liberals have is that a nuanced message does not cut across when increasing numbers of voters get their news through social media. Facebook particularly is very much designed feed you information tailored to fit your views.

I would never have noticed that was what you do.
 
The right relentlessly kept their eyes on the economic game whilst the left got distracted. They got distracted by trendy issue based politics and they did so because it was easier than concentrating on the hard economics and because it reflected the interests of the middle classes, who increasingly became their clientele. The real left need to commit their energies into protecting and EXTENDING the economic interests of their constituents. That would be a pretty good start. This may shock some, but most ordinary workers could not give a stuff about middle class feminism or gay rights, when they see their local communities crumbling, the welfare system collapsing and decent jobs being as scarce as rocking horse brick.
 
I guess i'm a liberal, i'm feeling kind of lost, not because "we lost" but because "the game" seems to have changed

it may well be the nutshell of the issue and people will point and laugh nelson style, but, the only logical conclusion I can come to isn't "liberals are wrong", it's that "liberals didn't do a good enough job of explaining to the conservatives why they were wrong"

to (also) steal from a Sorkin creation,



there have been so many progressive steps over the last decade, LGBT rights, movement on gun control, healthcare, I hope the regression is minimal

This. It is easy to bash the "liberals" but they have made society much more progressive. They make mistakes and are far from perfect but they are better than the alternative. Also it is easier to criticise than it is to suggest alternatives and it is easier to suggest populist quick fixes than build a progressive society.
 
This. It is easy to bash the "liberals" but they have made society much more progressive. They make mistakes and are far from perfect but they are better than the alternative. Also it is easier to criticise than it is to suggest alternatives and it is easier to suggest populist quick fixes than build a progressive society.



Apart from health care in this country, (not a 'liberal' policy), not much of the above would register with your typical working class Briton, who with the arse out his trousers surveys the wreckage of what once was. the same guy, who is rapt because his daughter actually managed to get two days a week of work in a trendy café serving lattes to 'progressives.' Yep the world truly is a wonderful place.
 
People appear to have lost any faith in the current political system. In Britain and America section of the population cannot accept the process when they lose. I totally understand why many people despise the political elite as they are so far removed from the world in which the majority of us live. Politicians only want to talk at the population and rarely listen to there views until it has an impact on their own position. The same people who force changes on us as we cannot stand in the way of progress never wish to have any changes to their status or power. This situation with economic uncertainty has always lead to an increase in extremist political movements.
 
I guess i'm a liberal, i'm feeling kind of lost, not because "we lost" but because "the game" seems to have changed

it may well be the nutshell of the issue and people will point and laugh nelson style, but, the only logical conclusion I can come to isn't "liberals are wrong", it's that "liberals didn't do a good enough job of explaining to the conservatives why they were wrong"

to (also) steal from a Sorkin creation,

there have been so many progressive steps over the last decade, LGBT rights, movement on gun control, healthcare, I hope the regression is minimal

I'm guessing conservatives will also be able to point to a lot of victories over the years.

Personally I definitely identify more with the liberal side of things, but there seems to be a real lack of focus on both sides these days. I thought the left was supposed to care about the working class and their wishes. Yet the people the right are currently reaching in some countries with their sometimes questionable methods seems to be the working class that the left has ignored for quite some time.

I think that the issue that liberals have is that a nuanced message does not cut across when increasing numbers of voters get their news through social media. Facebook particularly is very much designed feed you information tailored to fit your views.

When people are worried about the economy, their own food security and the education and future for their children how nuanced does the message need to be?

Trump promised to stop the influx of illegal workers, stop the export of jobs and a different trade policy taking back manufacturing jobs to Americans. Clinton, well. She kind of negotiated the trade deals that continued the current trend that's moving the working middle class into poverty.

Trump might not be able to keep his promises (politicians lying, who would have thought it possible?) But he at least listened to the people the left have ignored and their very real everyday problems. He ended up getting elected despite the wishes of both major political parties in the US, because his message reached people. Because the political class has ignored these people for too long.
 
I would never have noticed that was what you do.

I don't use Facebook. I use Twitter and that can be an echo chamber but that is down to who you follow, I quite enjoy reading well thought out arguments from a different viewpoint.
 
When people are worried about the economy, their own food security and the education and future for their children how nuanced does the message need to be?

Trump promised to stop the influx of illegal workers, stop the export of jobs and a different trade policy taking back manufacturing jobs to Americans. Clinton, well. She kind of negotiated the trade deals that continued the current trend that's moving the working middle class into poverty.

Trump might not be able to keep his promises (politicians lying, who would have thought it possible?) But he at least listened to the people the left have ignored and their very real everyday problems. He ended up getting elected despite the wishes of both major political parties in the US, because his message reached people. Because the political class has ignored these people for too long.

I agree but we also need to acknowledge that Clinton won the popular vote, Trump did not increase the Republican vote from last time but many Democrats did not come out to vote.

I think that Clinton was the wrong candidate, people do not warm to her. I don't think that Saunders would have won either. But I do think that the democrats could have won with a more effective communicator.

I do think though that simplicity of message is important in elections where people no longer get most of their news through traditional methods. Blaming minority groups is a simple message and is easy to convey.
 
I don't use Facebook. I use Twitter and that can be an echo chamber but that is down to who you follow, I quite enjoy reading well thought out arguments from a different viewpoint.

Quick question to that, have you read anything on Facebook or teletext that leads you to think that Brexit or the Trump win was a good thing?
 
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