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Politics, politics, politics

Robspur12 said:
However, amongst the nonsense were 2 valid points; firstly that the pace of integration and expansion is too fast consequently crippling some of the less robust eastern bloc economies such as Romania (which is why there are so many migrants from there); secondly that the populations from other European countries remain sceptical about the Union and feel unconsulted on many of the decisions taken by the politicians (incidentally that seems to be how many are also feeling about their national governments so maybe it is indicative of a wider disconnect between politicians and their electorate). If another major European power, acquiesces to pressure from its electorate and calls a referendum on membership, it is likely it will lose at this time. If a major Eurozone country leaves, it could be curtains for the Union. The European Commission would do well to learn some lessons from Brexit and not to ride roughshod over the concerns of the populations of its member states.
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The bell has started to toll on the Union with the UK vote, i fully expect there will be other countries following the UK path in the next decade.
 
Robspur12 said:
It is a terrible article, written in the typical cliched, sneering xenophobic tone of the brexit politician, with no balance. The negotiations on Brexit haven't even started and the author has already adopted a position of belligerent defiance and looking down his nose at the EU. It does a great disservice to the legitimate concerns that millions of people have/had to the EU "project." To belittle Poland for example, one of the strongest Eastern bloc economies in the EU, with a growth rate we can only dream of, is pathetic. It is pure hyperbole to claim that "until brexit no one in the UK has been able to comment about the EU," or that Britain had somehow lost its identity or sovereignty. In fact many Europeans looked on at us in envy at the deals and concessions we were able to eke out. We were not part of the Euro zone, opted out of Schengen etc. The very nature of alliances is that both sides compromise. To dismiss the EU as a "failing project" is also wide of the mark. To get 28 states, with different languages, cultures, and religions around a table and get constructive decision making on trade, food control, security and law and order is an incredible feat. I have a friend from Saudi Arabia who points out that the Arabs are amazed by what is achieved by the EU as despite sharing the same language and religion they cannot achieve any similar kind of constructive Union. It is also one of the reasons why I am so sad to leave the union and believe that it is, on balance, the wrong decision for the UK.

However, amongst the nonsense were 2 valid points; firstly that the pace of integration and expansion is too fast consequently crippling some of the less robust eastern bloc economies such as Romania (which is why there are so many migrants from there); secondly that the populations from other European countries remain sceptical about the Union and feel unconsulted on many of the decisions taken by the politicians (incidentally that seems to be how many are also feeling about their national governments so maybe it is indicative of a wider disconnect between politicians and their electorate). If another major European power, acquiesces to pressure from its electorate and calls a referendum on membership, it is likely it will lose at this time. If a major Eurozone country leaves, it could be curtains for the Union. The European Commission would do well to learn some lessons from Brexit and not to ride roughshod over the concerns of the populations of its member states.
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Yes picking on Poland and poles is a stupid point and will prove nothing.
The germ of the idea is correct but the application and justification is all wrong. Twisting facts like that is what breeds the xenophobia.
The EU is not a failing project, but it is definitely at a crossroads and a wrong turn could cause failure.

As a counterpoint to all the "we're doomed" guff flying about it makes some good points, I just don't like the spin or the tone it's using to justify those points.
 
parklane1 said:
The bell has started to toll on the Union with the UK vote, i fully expect there will be other countries following the UK path in the next decade.
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Cant see France or Germany leaving. The rest dont matter as their either economically reliant or irrelevant.
 
I'm starting to think that actually we need to take a step back, let ALL the dust settle and allow a Parliament, led by the Government, explore the Brexit position.
Treat the referendum as what it actually was - advisory - and let our Houses decide rationally how viable it is what the real impact is on the national good.
Then they can make an informed decision.

Brexit was an "idea".
It was agreed to put it out to tender.
Now the project should be properly scoped and we should all be open to whether, after appropriate scoping, it is a viable project that adds value.
 
monkeybarry said:
I'm starting to think that actually we need to take a step back, let ALL the dust settle and allow a Parliament, led by the Government, explore the Brexit position.
Treat the referendum as what it actually was - advisory - and let our Houses decide rationally how viable it is what the real impact is on the national good.
Then they can make an informed decision.

Brexit was an "idea".
It was agreed to put it out to tender.
Now the project should be properly scoped and we should all be open to whether, after appropriate scoping, it is a viable project that adds value.
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17 million people voted to leave

anyway lovely and sunny and I am not going to waste my time on anti democratic nazi followers
 
monkeybarry said:
I'm starting to think that actually we need to take a step back, let ALL the dust settle and allow a Parliament, led by the Government, explore the Brexit position.
Treat the referendum as what it actually was - advisory - and let our Houses decide rationally how viable it is what the real impact is on the national good.
Then they can make an informed decision.

Brexit was an "idea".
It was agreed to put it out to tender.
Now the project should be properly scoped and we should all be open to whether, after appropriate scoping, it is a viable project that adds value.
Click to expand...

The Torys would be portrayed as traitors and wiped out at the next election if they did that. We'd potentially end up with a UKIP majority government in 2020 then, as the 52% would get behind the one remaining standard-barer.

It's better a relatively moderate government with some liberal 'out of a region and into the world' voices manage this.
 
monkeybarry said:
I'm starting to think that actually we need to take a step back, let ALL the dust settle and allow a Parliament, led by the Government, explore the Brexit position.
Treat the referendum as what it actually was - advisory - and let our Houses decide rationally how viable it is what the real impact is on the national good.
Then they can make an informed decision.

Brexit was an "idea".
It was agreed to put it out to tender.
Now the project should be properly scoped and we should all be open to whether, after appropriate scoping, it is a viable project that adds value.
Click to expand...

No it was not, it was a vote to stay or leave and the majority voted to leave.
 
parklane1 said:
No it was not, it was a vote to stay or leave and the majority voted to leave.
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The referendum was not binary - unless you a source contrary to that.

I'm suggesting we have told our politicians what we want and what them to deliver.
I am also suggesting we elected them to act in the public interest and a full scrutiny should be undertaken on the premise of leaving the EU (is the instruction from the electorate), however if Parliament genuinely come to a consensus that it is not in the national interest (ie if all reasonably viable versions of Brexit look counter productive) then it should be rejected.

Just because we have told Parliament to deliver Brexit we should be adult enough to admit if we are not capable of doing so if, indeed, we are not capable.

That seems pragmatic to me, not undemocratic

Sent from my Nexus 5X using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
monkeybarry said:
The referendum was not binary - unless you a source contrary to that.

I'm suggesting we have told our politicians what we want and what them to deliver.
I am also suggesting we elected them to act in the public interest and a full scrutiny should be undertaken on the premise of leaving the EU (is the instruction from the electorate), however if Parliament genuinely come to a consensus that it is not in the national interest (ie if all reasonably viable versions of Brexit look counter productive) then it should be rejected.

Just because we have told Parliament to deliver Brexit we should be adult enough to admit if we are not capable of doing so if, indeed, we are not capable.

That seems pragmatic to me, not undemocratic

Sent from my Nexus 5X using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I have no idea how you voted but it sounds to be like you went for remain, i am not a supporter of May but her words Brexit means Brexit is what the majority voted for. You are begining to sound like the idiots who ( because they lost a democratic vote) were crying for another ballot.

If i have your stance ( ie you voted remain) wrong then i am sorry for classing you with the idiots.
 
monkeybarry said:
The referendum was not binary - unless you a source contrary to that.

I'm suggesting we have told our politicians what we want and what them to deliver.
I am also suggesting we elected them to act in the public interest and a full scrutiny should be undertaken on the premise of leaving the EU (is the instruction from the electorate), however if Parliament genuinely come to a consensus that it is not in the national interest (ie if all reasonably viable versions of Brexit look counter productive) then it should be rejected.

Just because we have told Parliament to deliver Brexit we should be adult enough to admit if we are not capable of doing so if, indeed, we are not capable.

That seems pragmatic to me, not undemocratic

Sent from my Nexus 5X using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Click to expand...

But everything - leaving or staying, is conjecture. All the past modelling and predictions have been very wrong

The future prosperity of the country depends principally on our new trade arrangements with China, America and India. But we can't initiate these until the Lisbon Treaty is repealed.

The public made a clear choice that the devil they didn't know was preferable to the devil they did know. That was their decision and that i's why going alone as a world player has to be pursued.
 
monkeybarry said:
The referendum was not binary - unless you a source contrary to that.

I'm suggesting we have told our politicians what we want and what them to deliver.
I am also suggesting we elected them to act in the public interest and a full scrutiny should be undertaken on the premise of leaving the EU (is the instruction from the electorate), however if Parliament genuinely come to a consensus that it is not in the national interest (ie if all reasonably viable versions of Brexit look counter productive) then it should be rejected.

Just because we have told Parliament to deliver Brexit we should be adult enough to admit if we are not capable of doing so if, indeed, we are not capable.

That seems pragmatic to me, not undemocratic

Sent from my Nexus 5X using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Click to expand...

The Referendum question was: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

The options were:
- Remain a member of the European Union
- Leave the European Union

How was this referendum NOT binary?
 
parklane1 said:
I have no idea how you voted but it sounds to be like you went for remain, i am not a supporter of May but her words Brexit means Brexit is what the majority voted for. You are begining to sound like the idiots who ( because they lost a democratic vote) were crying for another ballot.

If i have your stance ( ie you voted remain) wrong then i am sorry for classing you with the idiots.
Click to expand...
Nice side step on the legality of the referendum.

What I am for is an effective delivery of policy for the UK within the realms of the UK democratic process.
All of what I said in my post will stand up to scrutiny and seems to me like a pragmatic approach.

But it does raise the flip side question - as someone that voted to leave, if the process looks increasingly like being negative instead of positive for the UK would you be happy for Parliament to put the breaks on?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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