Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
You don't follow. Parties and independents will put out how to vote cards, so that voters follow set preference deals. These preference flows allow candidates with next to no primary vote support to get elected.
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
You don't follow. Parties and independents will put out how to vote cards, so that voters follow set preference deals. These preference flows allow candidates with next to no primary vote support to get elected.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Yeah great, if you don't mind having a government that cannot get it's program through parliament. Also great if you don't mind the government of the day being forced to horse trade with extremists and having their nut job programs enacted into law.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
And end up with perfection of a coalition like the one we have now.
Any government will have a struggle to get their program through parliament. As you've suggested, any bill has to be ratified by parliament, that includes representatives of all parties. My point is that at this moment in time, based on current opinion polls and voting projections, the next parliament could be made up of parties that obtained less than 50% of the vote. For example, the Lib Dems are actually expected to retain the majority of their seats, despite seeing a huge drop in voter support. That's because their vote is concentrated in certain areas of the country allowing them to win seats and remain the 3rd biggest parliamentary party, when they are predicted to be the 5th biggest party nationally.
Proportional representation is in my opnion more democratic, more representative and leads to more progressive and less agenda driven government.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
ok, 2 parts to this, i'll take the second first, i'm not happy with either of the 2 attempts i've made so far for the first one
My opinion are,
SNP: the UK is the country being governed here, its not a case of "Scottish Issue", that Trident is homed there is no more relevant than if it was on the Thames Estuary and Essex County Council had concerns. I'm sure they were not complaining in the 60's when the base was built, it was a major boost to the local economy.
UKIP: It's a loud issue, on which people are generally ill informed. My feeling is that most of those who are informed are not concerned.
Greens: The government have to govern in the real world, everyone wants to be more eco-friendly until it costs them money, you can have as many popular policies as you like if you don't really have to fund them.
I'm sure you could, there are endless example's of how things could be better in a perfect society, but we don't have that, we have quite a fudged up one, we are adrift in a raging storm, all government can be expected to do is keep the thing upright and correct the course accordingly.
Richie
Naybet
If a government doesn't have the votes to get it's program through, that's because not enough people voted for it. I see no problem with that.
The BNP got 1.9% of the vote in the last election. Many of their views are abhorrent, but that doesn't mean the people who voted for them don't deserve a voice. That's the nature of democracy.
The only downside of proportional representation to me is the lack of a direct representative. You'd no longer have an MP for each constituency, it'd be a number of MPs for each region.
Scara, it's £700m so far, on something that doesn't really work for even the simplest 1% of claims that can be handled. Everything that I have read on UC seemingly says that it is an impossible thing to do (in the way that IDS wants to do it), so they might as well have burnt the money.
As for the EU subsidies -- do you think that would require us to leave the EU? Whilst there are things that really p1ss me off about the EU (the double-standards when it comes to immigration requirements for EU v Non-EU migrants for one) my gut instinct is that we are better off staying in. Overall, I think the more connected and integrated the world becomes, the better place it will be for everyone living in it, even if things get a little unbalanced and sh1tty at times on the way. But I think I am open to persuasion re. leaving or staying, simply because I don't know enough about the pros and cons of each position.
Oh, and for the poser who asked whether we should go to PR voting, I would say yes. If it leads to coalition, then so be it, but votes should reflect the will of the people and currently, we get governments depending on how the people in marginal seats can be persuaded to vote.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
What are you talking about? A government with majority has no problem getting its legislation through parliament. If it has the numbers, it gets its way. None of what you say has anything to do with the voting system, allowing candidates with less than 2% of the primary vote getting elected under proportional voting. Under proportional systems a candidate is elected if they reach a predetermined quota. Many candidates reach that quota through complex preference deals with other micro parties. Also, in the Australian senate it is sometimes the case that there are up to 100 candidates running for the 12 seats in each state. The ballot paper can be almost a yard in width. Its a system that encourages crack pots, they run and often get elected.
I quite like the way Australia is run?
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Credibility? You approve of crackpots getting elected? How rational of you. Good luck with that.
So crackpots never get elected to parliament under the current system? Boris Johnson, George Galloway, John Prescott?
Margaret Thatcher was a crackpot and she ran the show for over a decade!
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Please don't start up on this woman. I haven't the energy to debunk her role in British politics again. Every year, there seems to be a massive debate about her and it goes on fro pages and pages..
Baleforce
Les Bennett
that's true, and nothing I've read from the other side of the argument has done anything to change my mind
No, we'd be in an even worse one, economy crumbling, mass riots, corruption, strikes, British industries killed and wars started to paper over the cracks.
If it wasn't for the Falklands War Thatcher and her government would go down as one of the worst governments in history.
My father always said he'd have a party when she died. And he did.
There are even leaked documents from Whitehall which show Thatcher and her cabinet agree to close down industries and let the North of England go into decline because they never voted for her. Sounds like a crackpot to me!
Baleforce
Les Bennett
sounds like common sense to me, the North was in decline, and showed no interest in learning anything new to address that
I'm gonna take Gilzeantoscore's advice and leave it there, there is no point on us going round and round on this as we obviously share no middle ground, our base positions are fundamentally opposed
I hope we both enjoy our afternoons entertainment, happy Sunday
I'm gonna take Gilzeantoscore's advice and leave it there, there is no point on us going round and round on this as we obviously share no middle ground, our base positions are fundamentally opposed
I hope we both enjoy our afternoons entertainment, happy Sunday