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Politics, politics, politics

Fantastic stuff.
Cameron has given Brexit the finger once and for all, and in doing so every single person in the UK, by effectively saying he will not exercise clause 50 and that a Brexiter can take that one on. I expected nothing less from someone who was foolish enough to base a general election around the promise of such a referendum due to 'fear' of UKIP's 'rising popularity'. Meanwhile, Brexit realizes that Farage is actually nothing more than a one-track clown shoe who could not realistically be trusted to fry an egg, let alone handle tricky negotiations with the Brussels snakes and come out with anything tangible. But Boris has suddenly realized that the very thing he craved he's potentially going to get, and it's obvious the thought that HE will go down in history as the man who ACTUALLY exercised clause 50 and had to negotiate the damn thing is an absolute bastard of a legacy to deal with. So Brexit, having convinced 17 million people that Britain will be British again, that Britain will suddenly be able to look after every British person within it's borders that it's shafted, that immigration will suddenly drop like a lead balloon, and that Britain will have to answer to no-one else ever again, suddenly finds that the weight of such implied promises is ridiculously heavy, not to mention generally unhelpful in a progressive society. So NOW the message shifts to 'let's wait a bit and see how it all shakes down.' I've seen some here exclaim hysterical laughter at those questioning Brexit, well allow me a hysterical laugh at anyone who thinks THAT is a tenable way to run ANYTHING. Even a tinkle-up in a brewery begins with a plan to go in and raid the booze, and once you have it in your possession you fudging well drink it because you had a plan before you told those involved it was the thing to do! Can you imagine going into your boss roaring about some important changes you thought would improve the way your company works, getting a bunch of co-worker son board, hearing from management that you can move ahead and then saying to them 'hang on, a few of these things might not quite be what they said they were, we're actually now going to sit back and see how it all pans out for a bit before we enact anything proposed'? You'd be laughed out of your job. Unless you stressed clearly that your plan was going to take time, anyone would expect you to hit the ground running the next day!
How long will Brexiters tolerate the fact that almost everything they thought would happen with a Brexit referendum win will actually take ages to enact on any scale as much because Brexit has no concrete plan of action?
A hot mess.
 
How about this? What about a sort of associate membership? Where we have some free trade access and some freedom of movement.

EEA, which is what Norway and Iceland have. Basically you do what the EU tell you, but you have no say in it. It's brilliant.

I seem to remember hearing prior to the vote that this would not be an alternative (from EU's POV), but it seems to be the most talked about option now.
 
Do you genuinely think it will get worse?

There's absolutely no way that we will end up with a deal that is worse than we have with the EU. Even at worst case, the tariffs will be less than our cost of membership but nobody is suggesting an end result that doesn't include free trade as far as I can see. Even the EU are talking around that.

On top of our business as usual with the EU, we will also have the ability to trade worldwide without prohibitive barriers. Unless we end up stubbornly refusing to accept freedom of movement in the negotiations, there isn't a scenario in which we are worse off.

Might I clue you in on something you would not (understandably) be aware of. You know how in the Bush years, Americans were ridiculed? Noticed how Americans are ridiculed for the rise of Drumph? And you know how there is generally a 'down-the-nose' view of Americans in terms of proletariat intelligence? Well, like it or not, that is now how many view us. We have reinforced some of the stereotypes people have about Britain having a small 'island' mentality. In essence (and I must stress, whether it's true or not!) you know those few tossers that have been sitting around tinkling it up all day during the Euros and getting into bottle chucking sing-song rows with anyone who wants to fight? Well that's the general image this vote has cast of us as a nation. I'm sure, in time, that will correct itself, but it's going to take some time...
 
that immigration appeared to be a key point for many leave voters, would keeping free movement not cause more unrest in the UK?

my feeling is many voted leave with the intention of a hard exit
Tough brick for them.

The EU have made it clear from the start that free trade = free movement.
 
The German vice-chancellor was interviewed on the radio this morning. I did not hear the beginning of his interview but what he appeared to be saying was that access to the single market could be negotiated but there would have to be some freedom of movement (but not necessarily full freedom of movement), and the UK would be expected to contribute to the EU budget - you don't get anything for free.
Obviously anything that is said now (by either side) is conditioning for the forthcoming negotiation. However there is a real risk that if we do keep access to the single market with those conditions or similar, there will be a very unhappy 50% of the electorate and more fuel for the UKIP fire.
I think we'll be able to get access without paying in as long as we allow free movement.
 
Then we should never have voted to leave. As I've been saying blind faith. How can anyone vote for a change as momentous as this, if they cannot be sure of the outcomes. Will it benefit me or not? Will it benefit the nation or not? Common sense really.
How can anyone be sure of the outcomes of staying? The EU might have tanked today with or without the referendum.

Or Germany might decide to put a robin hood tax on financial transactions.
 
Might I clue you in on something you would not (understandably) be aware of. You know how in the Bush years, Americans were ridiculed? Noticed how Americans are ridiculed for the rise of Drumph? And you know how there is generally a 'down-the-nose' view of Americans in terms of proletariat intelligence? Well, like it or not, that is now how many view us. We have reinforced some of the stereotypes people have about Britain having a small 'island' mentality. In essence (and I must stress, whether it's true or not!) you know those few tossers that have been sitting around tinkleing it up all day during the Euros and getting into bottle chucking sing-song rows with anyone who wants to fight? Well that's the general image this vote has cast of us as a nation. I'm sure, in time, that will correct itself, but it's going to take some time...
I genuinely couldn't give less of a fudge how people see us.

I sincerely doubt that Africa, China and the US will be feeling that way - they'll be looking forward to tariff-free trade.
 
EEA, which is what Norway and Iceland have. Basically you do what the EU tell you, but you have no say in it. It's brilliant.

I seem to remember hearing prior to the vote that this would not be an alternative (from EU's POV), but it seems to be the most talked about option now.
As far as I can tell, Norway only has to conform to product standards in order to trade. It is free to set its own rules on everything else right?

Seeing as the EU was only ever pretending we had a say before (see Cameron's empty-handed return) then that has to be better.
 
Fantastic stuff.
Cameron has given Brexit the finger once and for all, and in doing so every single person in the UK, by effectively saying he will not exercise clause 50 and that a Brexiter can take that one on. I expected nothing less from someone who was foolish enough to base a general election around the promise of such a referendum due to 'fear' of UKIP's 'rising popularity'. Meanwhile, Brexit realizes that Farage is actually nothing more than a one-track clown shoe who could not realistically be trusted to fry an egg, let alone handle tricky negotiations with the Brussels snakes and come out with anything tangible. But Boris has suddenly realized that the very thing he craved he's potentially going to get, and it's obvious the thought that HE will go down in history as the man who ACTUALLY exercised clause 50 and had to negotiate the damn thing is an absolute bastard of a legacy to deal with. So Brexit, having convinced 17 million people that Britain will be British again, that Britain will suddenly be able to look after every British person within it's borders that it's shafted, that immigration will suddenly drop like a lead balloon, and that Britain will have to answer to no-one else ever again, suddenly finds that the weight of such implied promises is ridiculously heavy, not to mention generally unhelpful in a progressive society. So NOW the message shifts to 'let's wait a bit and see how it all shakes down.' I've seen some here exclaim hysterical laughter at those questioning Brexit, well allow me a hysterical laugh at anyone who thinks THAT is a tenable way to run ANYTHING. Even a tinkle-up in a brewery begins with a plan to go in and raid the booze, and once you have it in your possession you fudgeing well drink it because you had a plan before you told those involved it was the thing to do! Can you imagine going into your boss roaring about some important changes you thought would improve the way your company works, getting a bunch of co-worker son board, hearing from management that you can move ahead and then saying to them 'hang on, a few of these things might not quite be what they said they were, we're actually now going to sit back and see how it all pans out for a bit before we enact anything proposed'? You'd be laughed out of your job. Unless you stressed clearly that your plan was going to take time, anyone would expect you to hit the ground running the next day!
How long will Brexiters tolerate the fact that almost everything they thought would happen with a Brexit referendum win will actually take ages to enact on any scale as much because Brexit has no concrete plan of action?
A hot mess.

Boris is beginning to look like clegg, I can say what I want because we won't win and I'll never have to do it. Now he has won he's trying to wriggle out of it.

You go to a bank for a loan to start or expand a business first thing they say is shows your plan, projections and possible outcomes. Then it's what are YOU willing to put up.
How come you can create all this havoc on a global scale without having the same scrutiny?
It's to easy for these pressure groups with no consequences for them.
Ridiculous
 
I've read Boris' column. As usual he's been mis-quoted by the rest of the press trying to stir stuff up. He has NOT blocked freedom of movement restrictions nor retracted on some of the key Leave promises.

I say this as someone who voted Remain.

Hear are the key quotes from his column with more context around them.:

It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so. After meeting thousands of people in the course of the campaign, I can tell you that the number one issue was control – a sense that British democracy was being undermined by the EU system, and that we should restore to the people that vital power: to kick out their rulers at elections, and to choose new ones.

I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.

The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal.

Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry. Yes, there will be a substantial sum of money which we will no longer send to Brussels, but which could be used on priorities such as the NHS. Yes, we will be able to do free trade deals with the growth economies of the world in a way that is currently forbidden.
 
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How can anyone be sure of the outcomes of staying? The EU might have tanked today with or without the referendum.

Or Germany might decide to put a robin hood tax on financial transactions.

both true, but having our own currency gives us some level of protection
 
does that not make it appear that there were actually 3 sides to this, remain, leave, re-negotiate?
That was always my stance since the EU told Cameron to go fudge himself.

That we should show that there is a clear mandate to leave in order to pressure the EU into renegotiation. I still think that we can get the best result for us out of this, but there are going to be a lot of very disappointed xenophobes.
 
As far as I can tell, Norway only has to conform to product standards in order to trade. It is free to set its own rules on everything else right?

Seeing as the EU was only ever pretending we had a say before (see Cameron's empty-handed return) then that has to be better.

We conform to everything. No other country is as conformed to EU standards as us. From the curve of a banana to the grain size in children's sand boxes (yes, there is a standard for that too).
 
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