Politics, politics, politics

[glasgowspur]

One lesson that should definitely be learnt from this and the Indy ref debacle is that if pressure groups want a referendum than they must have a clear plan laid for people to judge before a vote is allowed.
No more vague everything will be better promises. The voters need to know what they are voting for and how it will be achieved.

 

[monkeybarry]

How? Those remaining in the EU don't even know what they want from us, how could we possibly know?

Making a vote to leave a total finger in the air job.

 

[Roy1983]

And now, a lot of what a lot of them wanted has now been taken off the table.

No that's what a section of remainers want to get across incorrectly. I'm sorry but if anyone thought EVERY SINGLE PENNY we save would get pumped into a single organisation, in the NHS, they are deluded.

It will be drip fed into several sectors I'm unsure what people are thinking it is really out there.

 

[scaramanga]

Making a vote to leave a total finger in the air job.

Of course it is, but that doesn't make it worse than staying.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

How do you fully explain the end result of a negotiation?

Well at least you explain what the position is that will be presented. You make the argument to the people that you hope to make to the EU, but of course none of this happened. It was all "cry freedom stuff." This is the problem. The negotiations are so complex , as to make it almost impossible for exiters to present their case fairly, even with the best will. As to who should do the dirty work. Certainly not Bozo Boris.

 

[scaramanga]

Well at least you explain what the position is that will be presented. You make the argument to the people that you hope to make to the EU, but of course none of this happened. It was all "cry freedom stuff." This is the problem. The negotiations are so complex , as to make it almost impossible for exiters to present their case fairly, even with the best will. As to who should do the dirty work. Certainly not Bozo Boris.

I would be severely disappointed if our side had given away our opening stance to the opposition before even getting to the table.

Everyone knows what each of the main leave campaigners wants, they'll sit down with the EU and see how much of that they can get - there's no other way of knowing.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I would be severely disappointed if our side had given away our opening stance to the opposition before even getting to the table.

Everyone knows what each of the main leave campaigners wants, they'll sit down with the EU and see how much of that they can get - there's no other way of knowing.

Our demands would be pretty self evident anyway.

 

[scaramanga]

Our demands would be pretty self evident anyway.

So what's everyone complaining about?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

So what's everyone complaining about?

To the EU functionaries. The leavers needed to specify what was going to be done for businesses that invested in Britain on the understanding that we would remain a member of the EU. For example Nissan are building a new factory in Sunderland for the manufacturing of cars into Europe. What's happening with this? What will be the status of EU people living with British people? Will they have to get out? What about tax? Will EU regulations simply be dropped, expunged, or will be some be replaced by British ones? The great unknown and nobody from the leave campaign seemed to address any of it. It was just, vote Leave and everything will be alright on the night. Of course whilst all this uncertainty remains...what will be business do? Oh the irony, the Tories being held hostage by a capital strike on the part of their paymasters. Lack of investment could lead to a big recession. It wont be all smiles and light then.

 

[monkeybarry]

Of course it is, but that doesn't make it worse than staying.

With democracy comes responsibility.
And voting for something without any semblance of its impact and little expectation of the outcome is nothing more than wreckless, so yes it is worse because the only winners are Johnson, Gove and Farage.

The short run outcome is likely to seriously hurt alot of the people who voted for "sovereignty" and the long run (10 years) will just see a devalued Britain compared to now. It will be seen as a success through because it will get better, but it will still be worse than pre referendum.

Ah well, I've always said the UK electoratate are clueless

 

[scaramanga]

To the EU functionaries. The leavers needed to specify what was going to be done for businesses that invested in Britain on the understanding that we would remain a member of the EU. For example Nissan are building a new factory in Sunderland for the manufacturing of cars into Europe. What's happening with this? What will be the status of EU people living with British people? Will they have to get out? What about tax? Will EU regulations simply be dropped, expunged, or will be some be replaced by British ones? The great unknown and nobody from the leave campaign seemed to address any of it. It was just, vote Leave and everything will be alright on the night. Of course whilst all this uncertainty remains...what will be business do? Oh the irony, the Tories being held hostage by a capital strike on the part of their paymasters. Lack of investment could lead to a big recession. It wont be all smiles and light then.

They can't answer any of those questions - they're all subject to negotiation.

 

[Baleforce]

lifted (and paraphrased) from Twitter,

"the leave campaign convinced us to jump
off a cliff, the wings were someone else's responsibility"

 

[scaramanga]

With democracy comes responsibility.
And voting for something without any semblance of its impact and little expectation of the outcome is nothing more than wreckless, so yes it is worse because the only winners are Johnson, Gove and Farage.

The short run outcome is likely to seriously hurt alot of the people who voted for "sovereignty" and the long run (10 years) will just see a devalued Britain compared to now. It will be seen as a success through because it will get better, but it will still be worse than pre referendum.

Ah well, I've always said the UK electoratate are clueless

Do you genuinely think it will get worse?

There's absolutely no way that we will end up with a deal that is worse than we have with the EU. Even at worst case, the tariffs will be less than our cost of membership but nobody is suggesting an end result that doesn't include free trade as far as I can see. Even the EU are talking around that.

On top of our business as usual with the EU, we will also have the ability to trade worldwide without prohibitive barriers. Unless we end up stubbornly refusing to accept freedom of movement in the negotiations, there isn't a scenario in which we are worse off.

 

[Baleforce]

They can't answer any of those questions - they're all subject to negotiation.

only issues pertaining to the EU exit, there are a lot of functions we use the EU for, these all need replacing surely

 

[Baleforce]

Do you genuinely think it will get worse?

There's absolutely no way that we will end up with a deal that is worse than we have with the EU. Even at worst case, the tariffs will be less than our cost of membership but nobody is suggesting an end result that doesn't include free trade as far as I can see. Even the EU are talking around that.

On top of our business as usual with the EU, we will also have the ability to trade worldwide without prohibitive barriers. Unless we end up stubbornly refusing to accept freedom of movement in the negotiations, there isn't a scenario in which we are worse off.

that immigration appeared to be a key point for many leave voters, would keeping free movement not cause more unrest in the UK?

my feeling is many voted leave with the intention of a hard exit

 

[Glenda's Legs]

The German vice-chancellor was interviewed on the radio this morning. I did not hear the beginning of his interview but what he appeared to be saying was that access to the single market could be negotiated but there would have to be some freedom of movement (but not necessarily full freedom of movement), and the UK would be expected to contribute to the EU budget - you don't get anything for free.
Obviously anything that is said now (by either side) is conditioning for the forthcoming negotiation. However there is a real risk that if we do keep access to the single market with those conditions or similar, there will be a very unhappy 50% of the electorate and more fuel for the UKIP fire.

 

[parklane1]

lifted (and paraphrased) from Twitter,

"the leave campaign convinced us to jump
off a cliff, the wings were someone else's responsibility"

What a surprise, more macarons on teletext.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

How about this? What about a sort of associate membership? Where we have some free trade access and some freedom of movement.

 

[parklane1]

No that's what a section of remainers want to get across incorrectly. I'm sorry but if anyone thought EVERY SINGLE PENNY we save would get pumped into a single organisation, in the NHS, they are deluded.

It will be drip fed into several sectors I'm unsure what people are thinking it is really out there.

Indeed, but they will use anything to excuse what they are doing because they lost a Democratic vote.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

They can't answer any of those questions - they're all subject to negotiation.

Then we should never have voted to leave. As I've been saying blind faith. How can anyone vote for a change as momentous as this, if they cannot be sure of the outcomes. Will it benefit me or not? Will it benefit the nation or not? Common sense really.