milo
Jack L. Jones
Spain would probably object because they would be worried that it would encourage the Catalans to look for a similar deal
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
Spain would probably object because they would be worried that it would encourage the Catalans to look for a similar deal
It's basically a standoff between pro and anti. We get what we need to not be completely fudged, while those against the EU get to bask in the glory of being outside it. No government will touch the issue as it would drive a lot of 'no'-voters to minority parties that are currently irrelevant.
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
At the time of the Indy ref the EU were coy about the possibilities because they didn't want to upset the uk government, so there's no way in knowing sure. That no longer applies so in theory it should be easier, but Scotland doesn't meet quite a few of the criteria, so any special deal would not only set a precedent that will be difficult to ignore in future expansion, but cause resentment with newer members who weren't cut any deals.
The leave campaign(s) strongly implied that by leaving the EU, we would "take back control" of our borders by not having the free movement of people from within the EU anymore.
I believe that many Leave voters voted to leave with the elimination of free movement as one of their primary reasons. I don't think it was just xenophobia motivating this (although this played a part for some). I believe the reasons were economic, in the minds of the unskilled/semi-skilled, less people competing for their jobs, so better pay for them. There is some logic to that.
I voted remain, I have no problem with free movement but I can see where the other side are coming from. If we end up with a Norway deal, I think the discontent will be spread much further than UKIP voters, because one of the pillars of the Leave campaign will have been abandoned. There are lads I work with who are not racist, but they voted Leave with immigration at or near the top of the list as to the reasons why. These aren't UKIP voters, they aren't voters of anybody because this is the first thing that they have ever bothered to vote for.
Right now, a Norway deal seems like a safe option for those of us not fussed about immigration. But I think the Leave campaign should be held to account if Leave voters feel they were misled about free movement of people.
I believe that many Leave voters voted to leave with the elimination of free movement as one of their primary reasons. I don't think it was just xenophobia motivating this (although this played a part for some). I believe the reasons were economic, in the minds of the unskilled/semi-skilled, less people competing for their jobs, so better pay for them. There is some logic to that.
I voted remain, I have no problem with free movement but I can see where the other side are coming from. If we end up with a Norway deal, I think the discontent will be spread much further than UKIP voters, because one of the pillars of the Leave campaign will have been abandoned. There are lads I work with who are not racist, but they voted Leave with immigration at or near the top of the list as to the reasons why. These aren't UKIP voters, they aren't voters of anybody because this is the first thing that they have ever bothered to vote for.
Right now, a Norway deal seems like a safe option for those of us not fussed about immigration. But I think the Leave campaign should be held to account if Leave voters feel they were misled about free movement of people.
European markets are getting hit hard - some harder than ours.
They are the ones rushing to conclude a deal, they are the ones that will have to offer us something spectacular to make us hurry.
Also, who says it's a better deal? The EU keeps telling us that a shared currency is a benefit, and that we all benefit from handouts. In that case they're getting benefits that we're not.
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Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
now now, when they said "take back control" that's not what they meant, the "promises were only possibilities"
did anyone at any point say they would take back control, maybe there is something on their website about it, the url is http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
Boris is wary, and rightly so. He realises that the majority is hardly one at all. 52/48 is nothing.
Economically and socially you want any politician to do what is right for Britain, even if that takes a while to get there.
But, as proven with the referendum even being granted in the first place, politicians are generally self-interested and will often choose the route of least resistance. i mean, even Boris pitching up on the opposite side of the argument is probably him sniffing a hint of a fast track to no.10.
We need him (or whoever) to be bold and strong and argue a great case for the nation and have contingencies if we dont get an A1 result. The problem is we're divided, and with the usual tactic of keeping as many people happy as much as you can, this can lead to things being watered down and detrimental to the vision in the first place.
If we ask for free trade and the eu ask for free movement of people and we have to pay little in....thats not far away from what we already had, and surely we should have negotiated all this withiut the need for the vote in the first place. The problem now is, it appears that a fair few want controlled immigration and have voted for exactly that. You cant tell these people just to do one (@scaramanga ).
What needs to be done straight away is some drill down analysis of the referendum electorate. We've had break down of areas/ age groups etc...we need more than that to really get a comprehensive picture of who thinks what and in what order of importance.
Remain need to calm down and realise that it's not Farage's vision that will be played out here. Listen to people who are likely to be part of the process (it may well include remainers), they may not be able to move at the pace you expect but at the same time NONE OF US have a clue what has been going on behind the scenes. (unless of course you're JJ Jetset)
Economically and socially you want any politician to do what is right for Britain, even if that takes a while to get there.
But, as proven with the referendum even being granted in the first place, politicians are generally self-interested and will often choose the route of least resistance. i mean, even Boris pitching up on the opposite side of the argument is probably him sniffing a hint of a fast track to no.10.
We need him (or whoever) to be bold and strong and argue a great case for the nation and have contingencies if we dont get an A1 result. The problem is we're divided, and with the usual tactic of keeping as many people happy as much as you can, this can lead to things being watered down and detrimental to the vision in the first place.
If we ask for free trade and the eu ask for free movement of people and we have to pay little in....thats not far away from what we already had, and surely we should have negotiated all this withiut the need for the vote in the first place. The problem now is, it appears that a fair few want controlled immigration and have voted for exactly that. You cant tell these people just to do one (@scaramanga ).
What needs to be done straight away is some drill down analysis of the referendum electorate. We've had break down of areas/ age groups etc...we need more than that to really get a comprehensive picture of who thinks what and in what order of importance.
Remain need to calm down and realise that it's not Farage's vision that will be played out here. Listen to people who are likely to be part of the process (it may well include remainers), they may not be able to move at the pace you expect but at the same time NONE OF US have a clue what has been going on behind the scenes. (unless of course you're JJ Jetset)
The EU made it very clear we couldn't have that - that's why Cameron came back empty handed and the referendum went the way it did.
Had the EU not been so arrogant and fudging obstinate then there would never have been a need for any of this.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that most of what we are hearing at the moment is just a starting position to bargain from.
It's clear that nothing will happen until the autumn and I wouldn't be surprised if it was significantly later or never happened.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
If Cameron went for what i suggested, it still meant free movement which is a beef with a lot of leavers.
Are you saying he went for free trade and restriction on movement?
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
This is a question for Milo, I consider you one of the most intelligent on here and a very classy person with integrity.
Have you been surprised at the reaction of the remain camp? I have been disgusted personally and I think it will take a long time to lose that feeling.
Should remain had one, I would have had a little moan and then got on with things, just moaning every time something like us not being able to deport a terrorist(saying well i never voted to be part of europe).
I have been seriously shocked at the lack of class coming from that side. Not you, who despite disagreeing with on lots of points, I hold you in high regard.
Have you been surprised at the reaction of the remain camp? I have been disgusted personally and I think it will take a long time to lose that feeling.
Should remain had one, I would have had a little moan and then got on with things, just moaning every time something like us not being able to deport a terrorist(saying well i never voted to be part of europe).
I have been seriously shocked at the lack of class coming from that side. Not you, who despite disagreeing with on lots of points, I hold you in high regard.
He asked to block in work benefits for EU workers, he got that but only because it was rendered null by the increase in the living wage which will get rid of those benefits in a couple of years.
He asked that we are not on the hook for EU bail-outs and got some general sneaky wording in return. What sounds like a rule that blocks us from being liable to pay for bail-outs includes the caveat that this can be discussed and negotiated away without us at any time.
He asked to be rid of the WTD they told him to fudge off.
He asked that we don't pay for kids of workers living in other countries, he got some sneaky wording again and what seems to amount to nothing.
He asked for us to be able to block legislation we don't like, he got a weakening of the position we already have.
He asked for a stop to ever closer union and the onward march of the single currency and he got some temporary wording to that effect that can be changed at any time without our ability to stop it.
So he basically asked for almost nothing and got even less than that. He didn't even ask for free trade with other countries or any of the other stuff that would enable us to cover the cost of being in the EU.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
We already have an opt out. You can simply get people to sign that they are okay without the 48hr week. Many companies do as standard.
Richard Branson:
Elections and referenda don't come with a two-week, open-box return policy. Maybe they should. Because as the results of the European Union referendum (which was technically an advisory non-binding referendum for MPs to consider) emerged early on Friday morning, Leave voters across the UK realised that they had opened a Pandora's Box of negative consequences. And worst of all, they quickly learned that they'd been repeatedly misled to by the Leave campaign.
Within hours of winning the vote, Nigel Farage admitted that Leave advocates had "made a mistake" when they said £350 million a week would be redirected to the NHS. People had also been told that leaving the EU would put the UK in full control of immigration. Evan Davis found out on Newsnight that this too was untrue.
Will Brexit actually reduce migration to Britain? Maybe not - BBC Newsnight
And there's more. The Leave campaign had advised concerned citizens not to listen to the ‘experts’ and ‘the scaremongers’ and that the economy would be just fine. And yet, in the first day of trading following the result, two trillion US dollars were wiped off the world’s share prices. UK markets lost more money in one day than the country paid into the EU since we joined it many years ago (most of which came back in grants, anyway). These losses affect everyone's pensions, jobs, salaries, and government income, and they will push Britain towards a recession that will make it even more difficult to deliver essential public services.
The pound dropped to a 31-year low, with serious impact on British imports and people's holiday travel abroad. And the UK suffered the ignominy of having its credit outlook lowered to ‘negative’ by ratings agency Moody's on the expectation that Brexit would deliver a serious blow to the UK economy.
In the political sphere, Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced that a second Scottish independence referendum is highly likely, while Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland have called for a vote on Irish reunification. Some have even suggested for London to become an independent state so it can stay part of Europe (and possibly part of Scotland as well).
Meanwhile, the vast majority of young people, who voted overwhelmingly to remain, feel their own future has been taken out of their hands by an aging UK population that will not have to suffer the consequences of a lifetime out of Europe. As one woman said to me "up to yesterday I thought I had the choice of living and working in 28 European countries, now I'm restricted to one!"
The decision over the UK's future was based on false promises that pushed a minority of the UK's total voting population (17 million out of 46 million) to vote the way it did. Two years before Brexit will even become reality, according to EU rules, it is already having massive consequences on the UK economy, and on society. Brexit has fractured the country more than any other event in recent memory.
Based on the misrepresentation made by the Leave campaign, Parliament needs to take the petition of more than three million people to call for a new referendum seriously. The alternative is to watch a rapid decline of Britain's health and wellbeing.
When Nigel Farage was interviewed a few months ago he said that he would call for a second referendum if Remain won by a narrow margin. "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way," he stated. He went on to say that Remain needed to win by two thirds to end it and avoid a second referendum. Mr. Farage and the Leave campaign should now accept that the reverse scenario also warrants a second look.
The vast majority of MPs voted in by the electorate want the UK to stay part of Europe. In light of the misrepresentations of the Leave campaign, Parliament should reject the results of this non-binding referendum as Nicola Sturgeon has announced she will do in Scotland’s Parliament. Before the UK government invokes Article 50 of the European Treaty and does irreversible damage to the United Kingdom, the people’s elected representatives must decide whether the facts that have emerged really warrant abandoning the EU and whether a second referendum will be needed.
If you agree that Parliament should take a second look at the EU referendum, please sign this petition.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Indeed and before he went he said if he did not get the result he went for he would pull us out, then he flipped flopped ( the one thing he is good at) and then for the rest of the campaign he told us that the remain vote was the only way to go.
No wonder its such a mess with him in charge.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
Indeed and its surprised me as well, so many did not get what they wanted and are screaming insults at those who voted out.
I also agree with the point you have made about Milo.
parklane1
Tony Galvin
You mean this one which is being fiddled.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407
There's a lot more to the WTD than just an opt-out on 48hr weeks.
Let's not forget that the EU have been trying to get rid of that opt out for some time now, it comes up at just about every negotiation. There's no way we'd keep it forever had we remained.
glasgowspur
Luka Modric
I voted remain and tbh it's been a bit embarrassing listening to some of the moaning Gits.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Email Richard.
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
This is a problem when people spout stuff.(on either side)
You cannot say a minority of the voting public voted Leave BUT choose to not use those same parameters when you then say a 'majority of young people who voted overwhemingly to remain'. It is disingenuous. The majority of young people didn't even vote.