Paris

[elltrev]

It's shocking, terrifying stuff.

But has it always been just a matter of time before our bubble bursts? Has the idea that we can stay safely cocooned away from death and violence been a false one, particularly when hundreds of thousands of people have been dying in Muslim countries - arguably with 'the West' playing some role in the causes of that?

Most of us here will have lived in a time of unprecedented protection from war and violence - it's a scary thought to think that it could just have been a temporary blip which won't last...

 

[Baleforce]

Your ridicule hate and contempt for religion will be used as a recruiting tool for these bastaards. You would be doing little more than pouring petrol on to the fire.

In terms of what to do, for me this should be seen as a declaration of war. I think it is time (has been for a while) to put ground troops in. Isis are the closest thing to pure evil since the nazis. I think this should be done in conjunction with players on the ground and promises of new nation states for those that fight with us, iraq and syria are little more than poorly concieved western colonial constructs anyway (ignoring strong sectarian fault lines).

isis are not doing anything new, they are just a bigger group than others and news of their misdeeds travels farther and faster

 

[LutonSpurs]

What a horrible situation.

As the events unfolded last night I was replete with a number of emotions. Sadness. Anger. Hope. Fear. Confusion.

Sadness because innocent human beings were being killed.

Anger at the perpetrators.

Hope that it wasn't being carried out by people who claim to be of my faith even though I had little doubt in my heart and mind.

Fear because the backlash could be awful for moderates like me but we are powerless to stop them.

Confusion because there's not a single iota in my persona and being which can relate with what these people/monsters have done.

Thoughts are with the victims families. The French people. Anyone who has been affected.

Root cause analysis is a huge topic. Why did they do it. Fek knows. I would guess extremism of any form can push people to such madness. Desensitisation to violence. Indifference to others suffering. ISIS being allowed to grow as an idea not just as a group.

One of the problems for us moderates is that we have no idea how to reach out to these guys, they are radicalised online more often than not, and we are not sure they are more our responsibility than anybody elses. We are just people trying to get along for the most part.

But after all of that I am overwhelmed with sadness more than anything else. Horrible night.

 

[monkeybarry]

isis are not doing anything new, they are just a bigger group than others and news of their misdeeds travels farther and faster

And has been fuelled, as well as enabled, by actions of "the west"

We might want to start by not selling weapons into the region - but for all the blustering by politicians, they know there is too much profit (and votes) for that to be an option

 

[monkeybarry]

What a horrible situation.

As the events unfolded last night I was replete with a number of emotions. Sadness. Anger. Hope. Fear. Confusion.

Sadness because innocent human beings were being killed.

Anger at the perpetrators.

Hope that it wasn't being carried out by people who claim to be of my faith even though I had little doubt in my heart and mind.

Fear because the backlash could be awful for moderates like me but we are powerless to stop them.

Confusion because there's not a single iota in my persona and being which can relate with what these people/monsters have done.

Thoughts are with the victims families. The French people. Anyone who has been affected.

Root cause analysis is a huge topic. Why did they do it. Fek knows. I would guess extremism of any form can push people to such madness. Desensitisation to violence. Indifference to others suffering. ISIS being allowed to grow as an idea not just as a group.

One of the problems for us moderates is that we have no idea how to reach out to these guys, they are radicalised online more often than not, and we are not sure they are more our responsibility than anybody elses. We are just people trying to get along for the most part.

But after all of that I am overwhelmed with sadness more than anything else. Horrible night.

Emotive post Luton.

For me I think this is key.
You said you fear recrimination and within some easily influenced factions im sure that will happen - even if just emotionally.

Re; responsibility, I think it's the wrong question. It's more about opportunity for influence. A "western" ( Christian/atheist/perceived capitalist etc) voice would have little influence.
However most of these attacks are carried out in the name of your religion (we know its a distorted version) and people are influenced through being a position of disenchantment or generationally.
I think there needs to be a more vocal and fervent voice to promote the core values and good sides of Islam - the first battle is to get the "west" onside (I know you are part of the west, but hopefully you know what I mean) as at present "nice Islam" is stuck in the middle where it is viewed with suspicion on one side and demonized by terrorist actions on the other.
But there needs to be a push back against the radicals and that will be most effective from Islam and needs to be sustained for a very long time to diminish the hateful version being preached by a powerful minority

 

[Baleforce]

And has been fuelled, as well as enabled, by actions of "the west"

We might want to start by not selling weapons into the region - but for all the blustering by politicians, they know there is too much profit (and votes) for that to be an option

as I said above, this has been going on for over a thousand years, recent actions may not be helping but they are not the root cause

they hate us because of who we are, not what we do, they are against freedom and equality, the pursuit of happiness terrifies them, it's a threat to their power base

 

[LutonSpurs]

Emotive post Luton.

For me I think this is key.
You said you fear recrimination and within some easily influenced factions im sure that will happen - even if just emotionally.

Re; responsibility, I think it's the wrong question. It's more about opportunity for influence. A "western" ( Christian/atheist/perceived capitalist etc) voice would have little influence.
However most of these attacks are carried out in the name of your religion (we know its a distorted version) and people are influenced through being a position of disenchantment or generationally.
I think there needs to be a more vocal and fervent voice to promote the core values and good sides of Islam - the first battle is to get the "west" onside (I know you are part of the west, but hopefully you know what I mean) as at present "nice Islam" is stuck in the middle where it is viewed with suspicion on one side and demonized by terrorist actions on the other.
But there needs to be a push back against the radicals and that will be most effective from Islam and needs to be sustained for a very long time to diminish the hateful version being preached by a powerful minority

If Sky will only give platforms to the likes of Anjem Choudhary after stuff like this then how do we get ourselves up there?

On Social Media we are active, there are Satellite channels that promote harmony.

All of the mosques are anti ISIS.

It really doesn't make a difference.

Its like Naziism. We had a world war, my Grandfather drove trucks through the Himalays to stop that war being lost by us. Nazis were obliterated as a tangible entity but the idea still exists. We still have Nazis in Poland, Germany and in the UK and US. White supremacism exists because there will always be fuktards.

ISIS types will exist because there will be fuktards.

There is only one way to beat these people and that is to keep fighting them and killing them and locking them up.

If we think humanity is going to stop producing fuktards then we have misunderstood the nature of the gene pool. It's just the way we are. Mostly ok. A few complete macarons.

 

[StephenH]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

 

[monkeybarry]

@galeforce
@LutonSpurs

Agree with both replies, people hating others and repressive ideologies will always exist
But giving them the means (weapons, invading to create a political platform) and accepting it a part of human nature (evil people etc) just let's it carry on and grow.

Can we stop it? No.
Can we reduce it, suppress it, stop fuelling it? Yes. If ISIS want weapons, let them get them somewhere else. But capitalism and politics can't let that happen.

Re; a voice for Islam. Demand it happens. Take to the streets in protest against ISIS for example. Islam needs to be stronger in presenting itself as positive, and more importantly anti-ISIS as Islam is the voice that will be able to present the "true" version of Islam to those in danger of radicalism and the future generations.
Of course it won't stop terrorism, as Galeforce says, its as old as time,but it will devalue the ideology and thus make terrorist activity easier to combat.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

If Sky will only give platforms to the likes of Anjem Choudhary after stuff like this then how do we get ourselves up there?

On Social Media we are active, there are Satellite channels that promote harmony.

All of the mosques are anti ISIS.

It really doesn't make a difference.

Its like Naziism. We had a world war, my Grandfather drove trucks through the Himalays to stop that war being lost by us. Nazis were obliterated as a tangible entity but the idea still exists. We still have Nazis in Poland, Germany and in the UK and US. White supremacism exists because there will always be fuktards.

ISIS types will exist because there will be fuktards.

There is only one way to beat these people and that is to keep fighting them and killing them and locking them up.

If we think humanity is going to stop producing fuktards then we have misunderstood the nature of the gene pool. It's just the way we are. Mostly ok. A few complete macarons.

I actually know a few muslims and once you get past the whole believing in something that is not real (the same issue I have with Catholic friend) they are really nice people.

Agree with your point about sky giving the wrong muslims press, they largerly stopped talking to the BNP unless to undermine them(rightly so) unfortunately the media like to cause controversy to get ratings.

Europe had to pay a huge price to get rid of the Nazis maybe Europe will have to pay a huge price to get rid of the Islamic extremists. Personally I would start by banning anything that could be seen as extremist, the marches in London have feck all to do with free speech. I place a lot of blame at Blair and Labours door, they were allowing that fella with the hook for a hand to stand in the street for years, mouthing off about the west.

 

[LutonSpurs]

@galeforce
@LutonSpurs

Agree with both replies, people hating others and repressive ideologies will always exist
But giving them the means (weapons, invading to create a political platform) and accepting it a part of human nature (evil people etc) just let's it carry on and grow.

Can we stop it? No.
Can we reduce it, suppress it, stop fuelling it? Yes. If ISIS want weapons, let them get them somewhere else. But capitalism and politics can't let that happen.

Re; a voice for Islam. Demand it happens. Take to the streets in protest against ISIS for example. Islam needs to be stronger in presenting itself as positive, and more importantly anti-ISIS as Islam is the voice that will be able to present the "true" version of Islam to those in danger of radicalism and the future generations.
Of course it won't stop terrorism, as Galeforce says, its as old as time,but it will devalue the ideology and thus make terrorist activity easier to combat.

The problem here is that we do want to stop them but it's the same as wanting to stop the crazy old man who pushed a hijab clad women on to a train track yesterday. She survived and he has been charged with attempted murder but I do not expect white Londoners to protest against his actions because I don't believe he represents you. People have to stop believing Muslims are represented by ISIS. They are just vile people and we have as little ability to influence them as anyone. They do not care what the masses think bar that they want to go against the grain. Anarchists, nutters. My protest would mean nothing. If it could change them I would be out there. But I don't believe it matters. And I don't believe my community condemning them needs to be heard more than anyone else. It should be a given as is the fact that I don't believe anyone here thinks it's ok for the old man to try and kill that woman.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I actually know a few muslims and once you get past the whole believing in something that is not real (the same issue I have with Catholic friend) they are really nice people.

Agree with your point about sky giving the wrong muslims press, they largerly stopped talking to the BNP unless to undermine them(rightly so) unfortunately the media like to cause controversy to get ratings.

Europe had to pay a huge price to get rid of the Nazis maybe Europe will have to pay a huge price to get rid of the Islamic extremists. Personally I would start by banning anything that could be seen as extremist, the marches in London have feck all to do with free speech. I place a lot of blame at Blair and Labours door, they were allowing that fella with the hook for a hand to stand in the street for years, mouthing off about the west.

Place a large amount of blame on the foreign policy in Iraq which is where ISIS was born. In Abu Ghraib. By Zarqawi. Oppression and war creates monsters. I hope the Chilcot enquiry shows what a mistake Iraq was as the roots of all of this crap started there.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I agree they do not represent you Lutonspurs or any of the majority of decent muslims, but this actions are happening on such an unprecedented scale that I think the Muslim community would do well to distance themselves from them.

More should be done in the region by other islamic nations to stop the likes of ISIS. More should have been done early on to stop Hitler, you nip these things in the bud early or it stores up problems for later on.

 

[DTA]

isis are not doing anything new, they are just a bigger group than others and news of their misdeeds travels farther and faster

You see thats a common misconception Isis are actually a death cult (or propose to be one) who see their destiny in bring around the apocalypse. In this and many other ways they differ from alqueda (or however you spell it or other f##ks that came before them.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Place a large amount of blame on the foreign policy in Iraq which is where ISIS was born. In Abu Ghraib. By Zarqawi. Oppression and war creates monsters. I hope the Chilcot enquiry shows what a mistake Iraq was as the roots of all of this crap started there.

A lot of blame can be placed on foreign policy for sure. But you could go back to 9/11 if you wanted to be fairer.

Islam for whatever reason inspires more then it's fair share of people with mental health issues. The disaffected in our society who are looking for some sort of purpose in life. How we combat that I do not know, in this country we can close down mosques that do not promote harmony. We should be looking harder at what sort of teaching goes on in faith schools, we should not be afraid of the politically correct if we want to have a public conversation about banning certain religious clothing.

Foreign policy caused problems for sure, but I am someone who does not like, can not stand the UK's policy of integration with the corrupt EU, I aint going to kill anyone because of it. It is a similar scenario because I do feel very strongly about the EU. The most be something that makes converts of this religion so extreme and that needs addressing.

 

[StephenH]

Place a large amount of blame on the foreign policy in Iraq which is where ISIS was born. In Abu Ghraib. By Zarqawi. Oppression and war creates monsters. I hope the Chilcot enquiry shows what a mistake Iraq was as the roots of all of this crap started there.

Wow - this speaks volumes about the underlying problem with some in the Muslim community, it's all somebody elses problem thus fault!
Yeah coz that Saddam Hussain was such a good guy.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[billyiddo]

The problem here is that we do want to stop them but it's the same as wanting to stop the crazy old man who pushed a hijab clad women on to a train track yesterday. She survived and he has been charged with attempted murder but I do not expect white Londoners to protest against his actions because I don't believe he represents you. People have to stop believing Muslims are represented by ISIS. They are just vile people and we have as little ability to influence them as anyone. They do not care what the masses think bar that they want to go against the grain. Anarchists, nutters. My protest would mean nothing. If it could change them I would be out there. But I don't believe it matters. And I don't believe my community condemning them needs to be heard more than anyone else. It should be a given as is the fact that I don't believe anyone here thinks it's ok for the old man to try and kill that woman.

If i lived in a foreign land and there were people killing/attacking the host population in the name of my people, my frustration would be aimed at them and not at the indigenious people - now im not saying that you're not frustrated with the minority of extremists or are in anyway a sympathiser but from the outside looking in it comes across that the balance is wrong and the wider Muslim community in the west are directing their frustrations at us (the indigenous people/governments) rather than those within their communities which are the ones causing the troubles.

 

[Baleforce]

You see thats a common misconception Isis are actually a death cult (or propose to be one) who see their destiny in bring around the apocalypse. In this and many other ways they differ from alqueda (or however you spell it or other f##ks that came before them.

yeah, but they are not the first death cult religion

an argument could be made that all religions are cults with a death fetishism

 

[DTA]

Prohibitions (social and legal) on criticism of religion creates a shield for religious opinion to hide behind. Criticism starts and ends with humour in my opinion, you need satire, you need ridicule. If you don't have that right you have no right to criticise. It might be that ridicule is used as a tool of recruitment, it certainly motivated people to attack Charlie Hebdo it seems (although it could have been a symbolic attack that would otherwise have been aimed at another symbol). But there are also benefits to ridule, and the ridiculous deserves to be treated with ridicule regardless of threats of violence and any real or imagined recruitment to violence that results.

We've had way too much protection of religion. And it's gotten us nowhere.

Hate is a very strong word, but one I think is warranted in this situation. It's a word I'm sure the extremists are familiar with. It's an emotion, and although I don't believe in the notion that one cannot control one's emotions at all, or the notion that emotions don't influence action (both notions are rather ridiculous themselves) I believe my emotions on this are justified. Religious groups kill people in large numbers, they incite violence and bigotry. Two quick, non-terrorism examples: I believe religious doctrines are one of the leading causes of increased suffering, suicides and depression amongst gay and lesbian youths. The vatican is spending extraordinary amounts of money protecting and relocating priests accused of raping children, most likely allowing them to go on raping children elsewhere. They've been doing this at least for decades. And catholics from around the world continue to give them money! I don't think it's unjustified to have an emotional response that can be desrcibed as hateful. It says a lot about how much protection religion has enjoyed in our society that reacting to that with hate can be seen as a bad thing. Believe me, I could go on with the examples...

I do find it quite interesting that when discussing the blame of religion for terrorism there's always someone pointing towards socioeconomic reasons to excuse religion. But when it's a question of sensitivity from those critical of religion apparently our words can be really influential and socioeconomic reasons for terrorism are not really brought up. "My" words, my contempt, my humour can apparently drive people to extrimism and terrorism. But the words written by their claimed prophet, GHod's messenger, nope. Socioeconomic reasons.

There are too many other candidates for pure evil for me to agree with the part of your second paragraph comparing them to nazis, other than I think I agree with the rest of your second paragraph. I think the Syrian situation should be a bit of a wake up call to all of those who seem to disagree with all military interventions. Leaving states like this to fester doesn't help the situation, or their suffering population.

Your (and i dont mean yours specifically, rather the discourse you are trying to present) words are obviously not the only recruitment tool there are many others, of course scriptures and more importantly manipulation of them are also used as a recruitment tool.

But that kind of misses my point, what is the benifit of expressing those divisive (yes) but more importantly insulting opinions?
Just because you dont believe in the religions or have faith? If you admit that it can used as a recruitment tool... why the f##k does anyone want to help them recruit?

Thats not saying there is not a place for critism or questioning (of religion or anything else really) but thats not what you are promoting.... you say insult and riddicule...and not of Isis or other extremist f##ks (the insult and riddicule of whom, i would actually agree with.... and so would most muslims i think) but with the whole religion and other religions to thus actually making it easier for these shi#heads to recruit.

 

[braineclipse]

Place a large amount of blame on the foreign policy in Iraq which is where ISIS was born. In Abu Ghraib. By Zarqawi. Oppression and war creates monsters. I hope the Chilcot enquiry shows what a mistake Iraq was as the roots of all of this crap started there.

Did the oppression and horrors that happened within Iraq and of course the wars that happened with it's neighbours not create monsters then?

I think it's naive to just assume (or claim) that if only the west had not intervened in Iraq the situation would have sorted itself out in a much better way. A post-Saddam Iraq was always going to be a huge problem (just like the Saddam situation was), and at this moment in time could easily have been a worse situation than Syria had nothing been done. We simply have no "control group", just like we have no control group for Syria. What would have happened if NATO had intervened a couple of years ago in Syria with tanks and boots on the ground and planes in the air? Would it have been worse? The only thing you can guarantee is that most bad things that had happened since would have been blamed on the intervention by those that are generally against military interventions.

How do you think the Zarqawi story had gone if not for the intervention in Iraq?

That's not to say that mistakes haven't been made by "the west" of course.

You see thats a common misconception Isis are actually a death cult (or propose to be one) who see their destiny in bring around the apocalypse. In this and many other ways they differ from alqueda (or however you spell it or other f##ks that came before them.

Death cults trying to bring around the apocalypse are not actually something new though.

I wonder what role ISIS will have in history 100 years from now, I imgagine it's a small one.

Your (and i dont mean yours specifically, rather the discourse you are trying to present) words are obviously not the only recruitment tool there are many others, of course scriptures and more importantly manipulation of them are also used as a recruitment tool.

But that kind of misses my point, what is the benifit of expressing those divisive (yes) but more importantly insulting opinions?
Just because you dont believe in the religions or have faith? If you admit that it can used as a recruitment tool... why the f##k does anyone want to help them recruit?

Thats not saying there is not a place for critism or questioning (of religion or anything else really) but thats not what you are promoting.... you say insult and riddicule...and not of Isis or other extremist f##ks (the insult and riddicule of whom, i would actually agree with.... and so would most muslims i think) but with the whole religion and other religions to thus actually making it easier for these shi#heads to recruit.

You're advocating a military intervention in Syria. Won't that help ISIS recruitment? I believe it's because you believe the benefit outweighs the cost, no?

You agree that scriptures/religion is a recruitment tool for them. I guess you're not saying that scriptures on a whole are a bad thing? I believe it's because you think the benefit outweighs the cost?

If you see a trend here I think perhaps you're on to why I think insulting and even divisive statementns and opinions are valuable... Even if they are an alleged recruitment tool. I really think that much should have been clear from my previous post if it was read even with a moderate amount of good will. I didn't miss your point at all, I explicitly responded to it.

There is basically not a single criticism of religion that will not cause offense to some religious people. The same is true about expressions of other religions by the way. What does or doesn't offend the extremists continues to be a horrible way to choose what or how one expresses oneself.

The problem here is that we do want to stop them but it's the same as wanting to stop the crazy old man who pushed a hijab clad women on to a train track yesterday. She survived and he has been charged with attempted murder but I do not expect white Londoners to protest against his actions because I don't believe he represents you. People have to stop believing Muslims are represented by ISIS. They are just vile people and we have as little ability to influence them as anyone. They do not care what the masses think bar that they want to go against the grain. Anarchists, nutters. My protest would mean nothing. If it could change them I would be out there. But I don't believe it matters. And I don't believe my community condemning them needs to be heard more than anyone else. It should be a given as is the fact that I don't believe anyone here thinks it's ok for the old man to try and kill that woman.

I don't think it's your responsibility to stop them any more than any other individual... It's a global problem at this time. Though we've seen voices like Salman Rushdie speak out for decades about this problem, I think his opinion has become more accpted as mainstream as the years have progressed. Would you agree?

It is a problem of scale and frequency, so your comparison doesn't quite hold up.

I think changing the minds of those already radicalized is extremely difficult, close to impossible. For you from the outside, just like myself, it probably is impossible.

But there seems to be something about the situation these young men grow up in that leads to a way too large number of them ending up down the extremist path in the first place(even though it is of course a small minority of all Muslims). I think we agree on many of the factors influencing that. I also think that there are issues in what seems to be the current interpretation of Islam by moderates and the "mainstream" that is at least partly to blame for this. Though Islam isn't alone in this historically it's the religion that predominantly has problems in this area in the recent years. I suppose I rate those issues with (the current interpretation of) Islam and religions in general quite a bit higher than you. Whereas you rate the other issues (we probably agree on as causal factors) quite a bit higher than me.

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On a more positive note anyone else think this might be the beginning of the end for ISIS (though as Luton points out bad ideas seemingly never truly die)?

I'm a bit of a francophile (though sadly I do not speak the language). Thought the reactions to the Charlie Hebdo attack were about as spot on as any country responding to a terrorist attack has been, but those attacks did not leave France with a viable military target to persue. I think their reactions to this so far have been equally impressive, though different. This time there is an actual military target for them to go after in response to this. And I think they will. And I think they will do so with a considerable degree of intelligence and persistance. They will almost certainly also have the support of NATO and most importantly the US in doing so.

Amongst the just about entirely misplaced jokes about the French as white flag waving surrendermonkies I think it gets forgotten just how strong they can be militarily. And, in my perhaps ignorant opinion, vengeful and perahps even cruel. I mean they still have fudging foreign legions... That's pretty messed up when you think about it. These are not usually reasons to be a francophile in my world, but it's still a reality.

If ISIS attacked France to try to prevent them and others from further involvements in the wars ISIS are involved with I think their terror will have a similar effect as most of the terror bombings of WW2 (that is to say the opposite effect). If they attacked France to provoke a military reaction I think they will get what they want, but that it will perhaps be something they regret at a later stage.