Paris

[milo]

I agree - the difficulties they face is unimaginably harder than anything those of us in Europe could imagine.

I just thought that if you need a proper border, get the experts in.

I don't think that it is possible or desirable for Europe to close its boarders.

We also do not know who was behind these attacks yet. I think that it would be a mistake to assume that it was first generation immigrants or people from outside the country. That has not been the case in similar incidents before.

 

[scaramanga]

All for that.

I was referring more to the suggestion of troops on the ground and driving ISIS out of Syria and Iraq. I think that the likelihood is that in time they will morph into another organisation and pop up somewhere else unstable.

It's an impossible situation and, for once, I don't believe I know the answer.

Its a war that could be won if the US wanted, but they'd have to be entirely unconcerned about civilian casualties to an extent that even the most fervent "Murika, fudge yeah" supporter would find unpalatable.

Equally, there would be no shame in just stepping away entirely and letting the Middle East burn. That seems a little like a policy of ghettoisation on a global scale. I doubt most people's moral compasses would accept the amount of suffering walking away would cause.

So you end up with something like now - a bit of bombing, a bit of aid, everyone too scared to tell Putin to fudge off, etc. Worst of all both of our political parties then start using it as a method of point scoring and doing anything of real worth becomes impossible.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't think that it is possible or desirable for Europe to close its boarders.

We also do not know who was behind these attacks yet. I think that it would be a mistake to assume that it was first generation immigrants or people from outside the country. That has not been the case in similar incidents before.

I doubt it was anyone that wasn't already a French citizen. I was just talking about the difficulty of getting dangerous items across borders. Obviously some will always get through, but I think our island status has done us a lot of favours in that sense.

 

[milo]

I agree @scaramanga and I don't have aclue what the answer is either.

With regards to Putin, we have both continued a cold war by proxy in the Middle East since the end of the real one. Their involvement in Syria has made a difficult situation even more complex.

Have you seen Bitter Lake?

 

[braineclipse]

Bastards... (And I don't mean that in a good way)

Thoughts with the French and Parisians... I hope they respond as well as they did after the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

I think it's way premature to talk about

Ridicule.

It entrenches the current believers but you can't win them over anyway. Ridicule ensures the next generation sees it for what it is - fairy stories about imaginary friends.

Don't forget about the hatred and contempt...

I don't think that it is possible or desirable for Europe to close its boarders.

We also do not know who was behind these attacks yet. I think that it would be a mistake to assume that it was first generation immigrants or people from outside the country. That has not been the case in similar incidents before.

Agreed on the first point. Let's not react to these idiots by doing something that limits our freedom. It's part of what they want, it's part of what terrorists have gotten in the US... I trust the French to be smarter than that.

Agreed on the second point too. Seen way too many comments online hinting about refugees causing this. Not saying Scara or anyone else on here are saying that just to be clear.

 

[milo]

I doubt it was anyone that wasn't already a French citizen. I was just talking about the difficulty of getting dangerous items across borders. Obviously some will always get through, but I think our island status has done us a lot of favours in that sense.

I agree.

Getting the balance right between public safety and living in a free society is really difficult. Closing the EU border would be a monumental task and probably impossible to achieve. I think that it would also project a really bad message to our allies and neighbours outside of the EU.

 

[braineclipse]

It's an impossible situation and, for once, I don't believe I know the answer.

Its a war that could be won if the US wanted, but they'd have to be entirely unconcerned about civilian casualties to an extent that even the most fervent "Murika, fudge yeah" supporter would find unpalatable.

Equally, there would be no shame in just stepping away entirely and letting the Middle East burn. That seems a little like a policy of ghettoisation on a global scale. I doubt most people's moral compasses would accept the amount of suffering walking away would cause.

So you end up with something like now - a bit of bombing, a bit of aid, everyone too scared to tell Putin to fudge off, etc. Worst of all both of our political parties then start using it as a method of point scoring and doing anything of real worth becomes impossible.

If it's true that this was a response to France entering the Syrian conflict as has been claimed by one eye witness I think it highlights the need to not allow nations to fail. I'm sure blame can be aimed in many directions for the Syrian situation, but it's naive in the extreme to think that an isolationist or "ghettoisation on a global scale" strategy will actually work, and not just for moral reasons. Suffering like that spreads, it always will. Syria has been a mess of a situation for some time, and one can understand NATO staying out of it considering the results and reactions to some of their more recent attempts at getting involved... But leaving a situation to fester doesn't help either.

 

[Baleforce]

it can't be seen as just a response to recent events, it's been going on for over a thousand years

I also don't believe it has that much to do with religion anymore, by all means they will use that as a banner to hide behind but it's just an excuse for those who want to watch the world burn

 

[braineclipse]

it can't be seen as just a response to recent events, it's been going on for over a thousand years

I also don't believe it has that much to do with religion anymore, by all means they will use that as a banner to hide behind but it's just an excuse for those who want to watch the world burn

The terrorists went into this knowing that they would not survive it. Suicide bombs strapped to them, with a plan that would get armed terror police shooting to kill.

Assuming reports are true, their religion tells them that a better life awaits them after their death. That the end of their life on this planet is not the actual end for them. I think that has something to do with their decision to do what they did.

 

[milo]

Bastards...
Don't forget about the hatred and contempt...

I think that the problem with this approach is that we need we need moderate Muslims to win the war of ideas with the extremists.

 

[Baleforce]

The terrorists went into this knowing that they would not survive it. Suicide bombs strapped to them, with a plan that would get armed terror police shooting to kill.

Assuming reports are true, their religion tells them that a better life awaits them after their death. That the end of their life on this planet is not the actual end for them. I think that has something to do with their decision to do what they did.

it's obviously fudged up, I question how many (if any) truly believe any of that nonsense though

I don't have a problem understanding the cruel behaviour of individuals, but I've yet to be convinced anyone is really that stupid, when they take these actions I believe they do so consumed with hate for those they take with them rather than the tranquility of theological promise, they are lashing out rather than reaching out, it's like toddlers fighting over a toy

 

[braineclipse]

I think that the problem with this approach is that we need we need moderate Muslims to win the war of ideas with the extremists.

And they need us?

I can ridicule, hate and show contempt for religion without hating all religious people. I certainly don't hate all religious people, at most a very small minority. And I don't hate or ridicule all religious ideas or messages. Though I will enjoy ridicule aimed at a lot of them.

There are many things needed to win a war of ideas. All I'm saying is that ridicule, hate and contempt can be some of those things and a very important part of it. You also need love, understanding, compassion, rationality... and so on and so on.

 

[milo]

And they need us?

I can ridicule, hate and show contempt for religion without hating all religious people. I certainly don't hate all religious people, at most a very small minority. And I don't hate or ridicule all religious ideas or messages. Though I will enjoy ridicule aimed at a lot of them.

There are many things needed to win a war of ideas. All I'm saying is that ridicule, hate and contempt can be some of those things and a very important part of it. You also need love, understanding, compassion, rationality... and so on and so on.

I agree

 

[braineclipse]

it's obviously fudgeed up, I question how many (if any) truly believe any of that nonsense though

I don't have a problem understanding the cruel behaviour of individuals, but I've yet to be convinced anyone is really that stupid, when they take these actions I believe they do so consumed with hate for those they take with them rather than the tranquility of theological promise, they are lashing out rather than reaching out, it's like toddlers fighting over a toy

It's not really any more nonsensical than the ideologies of most religions. Ideas of the afterlife have played a key part in many religions for thousands of years and I believe a lot of people have actually believed it. It seeming like nonsense from the outside doesn't change that.

There are many ways to lash out and be violent against those you hate without ending up dead yourself. Their choice to act in this way seems to me connected to a belief in an afterlife. I mean would it really be impossible to plan and execute a terrorist action and then escape and join your terrorist group in some foreign countr? It's not even attempted though. Death seems preferrable, not just unavoidable. It's not only about attacking the enemy, its about dying while you do so.

 

[Baleforce]

It's not really any more nonsensical than the ideologies of most religions. Ideas of the afterlife have played a key part in many religions for thousands of years and I believe a lot of people have actually believed it. It seeming like nonsense from the outside doesn't change that.

There are many ways to lash out and be violent against those you hate without ending up dead yourself. Their choice to act in this way seems to me connected to a belief in an afterlife. I mean would it really be impossible to plan and execute a terrorist action and then escape and join your terrorist group in some foreign countr? It's not even attempted though. Death seems preferrable, not just unavoidable. It's not only about attacking the enemy, its about dying while you do so.

it's suicide by cop, it suggests that they hold equal contempt for themselves as they do those they are attacking

I agree it's just as much gonads as all other beliefs in an afterlife

 

[Baleforce]

what we have is crimes perpetrated by brainwashed young people with so little hope in their lives that they have allowed themselves to be talked into situations that they hope could be true rather than believe are true

it's not the scholars and the clerics strapping on vests, one wonders how they live such long lives if they truly believe the land of milk and honey is just a button press away

 

[braineclipse]

it's suicide by cop, it suggests that they hold equal contempt for themselves as they do those they are attacking

I agree it's just as much cobblers as all other beliefs in an afterlife

Do we really see people planning a suicide by cop for months and months? Are they calm as seen from the outside in the immediate buildup to their confrontation? That might happen, but I don't think it's the norm as it seems to be with terrorists.

I think if you look at human history it makes a lot more sense if you assume that most people actually (for the most part) believe in the religious ideas they claim to believe in. All those beliefs are pretty much equally nonsensical from the outside. There are obviously people that fake a belief in GHod or an afterlife, or people that don't believe with as much conviction or security as they claim. But I don't see any reason to believe that suicide terrorists are over represented in that.

 

[braineclipse]

what we have is crimes perpetrated by brainwashed young people with so little hope in their lives that they have allowed themselves to be talked into situations that they hope could be true rather than believe are true

it's not the scholars and the clerics strapping on vests, one wonders how they live such long lives if they truly believe the land of milk and honey is just a button press away

I agree that many of them have been brainwashed, and perhaps in part have brainwashed themselves with religious sources and texts.

It's one of the great flaws of humanity, just how accepting we are of such doctrines.

But religion is a fantastic tool when it comes to brainwashing young men into committing horrible acts of violence. And any culture that celebrates faith and holy books is surely a good starting point for those wishing to brainwash people with holy books and promises of the afterlife. I think that makes religion an important part of it all. And I think that partly explains why "suicide bomber" is almost always used to describe someone religious.

 

[StephenH]

The human races seeming need for so called 'religions' leaves me bitter and baffled in equal measure.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@milo the Russian support of Assad is not black and white. There are many EU and US officials who also wanted to back Assad when ISIS and the instability became apparent. He represented the best of a bad bunch as it were, and the only foundation of stability left. So Russia is not really acting as such a maverick as the western media/ politicians make out as many would have liked to have done the same and backed Assad.

It is a horribly complex mess, probably caused by other peoples interventions and funding. Turkey-PKK - both fighting common enemies, but also each other! US, Israel other middle east countries backing Syrian rebels, Russia backing Assad who's fighting ISIS and rebels. The worst thing is, it is all caused by outside interventions. The more the west and others intervene the more instability is caused. "Regime Change" may as well be called 'Anarchy Creation'.

As to solutions. The outcome is already, and will increasingly be, cold war like state policing. Everything potential terror candidates do will be analysed and watched. State run agencies will use new technologies to watch as never before. People will ask why the French were so behind the curve and while watching they let these things happen.

Really most elements of these awful events are not new. The Ottoman empire had suicidal soldiers, albeit more regimented. Terrorists have been placing bombs since they figured out how to rig explosives. What is new is the use of communication tools to orchestrate acts and recruit new fanatics. Governments have been slow to react to this. On one hand you have Snowden, liberty etc, on the other people want answers as to why such atrocities were not intercepted by intelligence.